PWCC Selling Trimmed SGC 6.5 1933 Goudey Ruth, First Sold by Probstein

[3124508 on COMC]

Card was sold unaltered as a SGC 60 (5) by Heritage Auctions on October 24, 2012. The card was then trimmed along three edges and the corners were sharpened/evened out. It was then graded by SGC as a SGC 82 (6.5) and sold via Probstein on 7/7/2013, REA on 5/6/2018, and is currently being sold by PWCC and is set to end in just over 24 hours. This thread will be sent to PWCC. Note below how all of the corners have been molested and how silly the left edge looks when compared to the untrimmed right edge.

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/2183791
https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...umbnail-071515
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...york-459486450

[superdan49]

Wow nice find. So first sale here is Probstein?

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Wow nice find. So first sale here is Probstein?

Yep, that’s the first one I see recorded anywhere.

[auburn35]

Nice find, 312.

Right edge likely saved from trimming, as it was already short.

[IgnatiusJReilly]

Listing is down. The card was super nice before alterations. Bastards!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bruins1993]

Sale prices:

5/6/18 $12,000.00 REA
7/7/13 $5,100.00 eBay probstein123 2***h

-----

Is SGC 0700633 going to make it to the FBI's hands?

[corndog]

So Heritage Auctions should have a record of who purchased the card unaltered on October 24, 2012?

[edgeusaf1]

How can these ebay sellers get away with this?? I know they have a lot of $$ but omg, why would anyone support PWCC's business???!!!

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by edgeusaf1

How can these ebay sellers get away with this?? I know they have a lot of $$ but omg, why would anyone support PWCC's business???!!!

This one was decidedly not PWCC's fault. Unfortunately we will probably never know the true culprit's identity because SGC uses random certification numbers.

[BOSTONLEGENDS]

You cannot blame PWCC here. They did the right thing and ended it once this thread started. With 14,000 cards they cannot possible inspect every one of them. I think we are all conditioned to at least respect the holder at first glance.

[Beantownhero]

Couple rare events here.

1. PWCC did the right thing and ended listing (wonder if that was Jeff's recommendation)

2. The card was resubmited to SGC for grading after altercation and NOT PSA.


SGC is way more consistant and better for prewar cards. Plus harded to pass through an altered card.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by BOSTONLEGENDS

You cannot blame PWCC here. They did the right thing and ended it once this thread started. With 14,000 cards they cannot possible inspect every one of them. I think we are all conditioned to at least respect the holder at first glance.

The ones worth a nickel? Sure. Cards worth 4 or 5 or 6 figures is an entirely different story. A slab does NOT absolve them of conducting their due diligence.

[tconte]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

The ones worth a nickel? Sure. Cards worth 4 or 5 or 6 figures is an entirely different story. A slab does NOT absolve them of conducting their due diligence.

Exactly! The got different people on staff that do different things, why not
review the cards better instead of waiting for BODA.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by tconte

Exactly! The got different people on staff that do different things, why not
review the cards better instead of waiting for BODA.

Because I guarantee nobody on their staff is as good as 312 at uncovering trimmed cards. They did the right thing here given the evidence. There's so much bad stuff out there I don't think any of these auction houses will ever have a completely clean auction. That's the sad reality due to the failure of the TPGs. The best we can ask for is that they have someone competently review every card—especially high dollar cards—and that they take down tainted cards when presented with the evidence.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Because I guarantee nobody on their staff is as good as 312 at uncovering trimmed cards. They did the right thing here given the evidence. There's so much bad stuff out there I don't think any of these auction houses will ever have a completely clean auction. That's the sad reality due to the failure of the TPGs. The best we can ask for is that they have someone competently review every card—especially high dollar cards—and that they take down tainted cards when presented with the evidence.

I think this is right, Dan. There has always been a high volume of cards in holders that have been altered that pass through innocent hands. It would be nice if all the houses/dealers who care actually looked at each card, or at least the "expensive" ones but collectors really need to learn what to look for, if they care to avoid getting a bad card. Sometimes you cannot tell but it does not hurt to know more about what you are buying. And in cases where you are just not sure, it is always best to pass. Most collectors do not have that ability though.

[pip]

Originally Posted by BOSTONLEGENDS

You cannot blame PWCC here. They did the right thing and ended it once this thread started. With 14,000 cards they cannot possible inspect every one of them. I think we are all conditioned to at least respect the holder at first glance.

Maybe if PWCC paid closer attention to the actual consignors it would help. For instance, if PWCC stopped auctioning cards from known card doctors, the majority of altered cards (in their auctions) would be eliminated. Not a difficult concept.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pip

Maybe if PWCC paid closer attention to the actual consignors it would help. For instance, if PWCC stopped auctioning cards from known card doctors, the majority of altered cards (in their auctions) would be eliminated. Not a difficult concept.

I think an honest consignor law is the real solution. Any item over say $500, and the identity of the consignor is revealed upon request. The auction industry will fight this with everything they have because they know a large percentage of the goods they traffic are from unethical or even criminal sources.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pip

Maybe if PWCC paid closer attention to the actual consignors it would help. For instance, if PWCC stopped auctioning cards from known card doctors, the majority of altered cards (in their auctions) would be eliminated. Not a difficult concept.

He was warned repeatedly 15+ years ago and like every addict, they lie and tell you they have quit but then secretly sneak another "hit". I think you even suggested (or were told) that he is still working with Moser in some capacity and he is under federal investigation. If a federal investigation does not make you correct your ways then nothing will. Just ask Doug Allen if it was worth it.

[pip]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I think an honest consignor law is the real solution. Any item over say $500, and the identity of the consignor is revealed upon request. The auction industry will fight this with everything they have because they know a large percentage of the goods they traffic are from unethical or even criminal sources.

That measue is desperately needed.

I find it extremely disingenuous when auction houses act surprised or shocked when expensive altered cards in their auctions are outed. They KNOW. And so would everyone else if the consignor's identity were revealed.

[pip]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

He was warned repeatedly 15+ years ago and like every addict, they lie and tell you they have quit but then secretly sneak another "hit". I think you even suggested (or were told) that he is still working with Moser in some capacity and he is under federal investigation. If a federal investigation does not make you correct your ways then nothing will. Just ask Doug Allen if it was worth it.

That's a good comparison. Continuing to accept cards from known card doctors is like a bad drug habit.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pip

That's a good comparison. Continuing to accept cards from known card doctors is like a bad drug habit.

He took it a step or two further because he then started altering the cards himself, but yes it appears to be an addiction of sorts.

[irv]

Originally Posted by pip

Maybe if PWCC paid closer attention to the actual consignors it would help. For instance, if PWCC stopped auctioning cards from known card doctors, the majority of altered cards (in their auctions) would be eliminated. Not a difficult concept.

PWCC got to be so big/popular due to the high end cards they carried and sold.

If it weren't for these high end, doctored cards, they wouldn't be half as big as what they are.

Guaranteed they are in on it and knew fully well what they were doing. Trying to build the business through complicit means meant nothing to them as long as their company grew.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Because I guarantee nobody on their staff is as good as 312 at uncovering trimmed cards. They did the right thing here given the evidence. There's so much bad stuff out there I don't think any of these auction houses will ever have a completely clean auction. That's the sad reality due to the failure of the TPGs. The best we can ask for is that they have someone competently review every card—especially high dollar cards—and that they take down tainted cards when presented with the evidence.

The way I see it, PWCC owes 312 a consulting fee worth at least as much as the PayPal fees they would’ve lost.

Also, although the TPGs failed, the *real* problem was everyone believing in them almost 100% of the time. People got lazy and should’ve known better in the first place.

[Pink Pussycat]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

The way I see it, PWCC owes 312 a consulting fee worth at least as much as the PayPal fees they would’ve lost.

Also, although the TPGs failed, the *real* problem was everyone believing in them almost 100% of the time. People got lazy and should’ve known better in the first place.

This statement is SO true and insightful...

The TPGs are incompetent, and play favorites. That's a given.

But the bigger problem is the unwavering faith that the masses have invested in them. Without the hoards of hypnotized people willing to throw money to the wind (because of a slab), TPGs would have a far less harmful influence on the hobby.

The perfect combination of collector laziness and greed has allowed TPGs to spiral out of control, and impregnate our collections with cards that were improperly assumed to be good. Some alterations are obvious and some very subtle. But now that they are everywhere, even the most reputable Dealers and AH's will inevitably feature tainted product.

[Cactuspies]

Originally Posted by IgnatiusJReilly

Listing is down. The card was super nice before alterations. Bastards!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They took it down, but forgot to update their email blast that went out a couple of hours ago...oooopssie