How worried should I be about trimmed cards?

[rms13]

I’m starting to buy more vintage raw and graded. I kind of figured buying graded was safe and then I read the enormous threads about PWCC/PSA scandal and made me think twice. Do you worry about getting a trimmed card that got through PSA? Am I overthinking it?


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[Stifle]

Depends on the money you have invested into them.

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by rms13

I’m starting to buy more vintage raw and graded. I kind of figured buying graded was safe and then I read the enormous threads about PWCC/PSA scandal and made me think twice. Do you worry about getting a trimmed card that got through PSA? Am I overthinking it?


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Depends what cards you are buying

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[rms13]

Originally Posted by hxcmilkshake

Depends what cards you are buying

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For example, I’m shopping for 50s Ted Williams in lower grades like PSA 5 and under. I figured that lower grades wouldn’t be a problem but I saw a list of called out cards and there were a lot of lower grades on there.


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[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by rms13

For example, I’m shopping for 50s Ted Williams in lower grades like PSA 5 and under. I figured that lower grades wouldn’t be a problem but I saw a list of called out cards and there were a lot of lower grades on there.


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Generally speaking you'll be ok with the lower grades for those Teds but if you do venture '51 and earlier, you can run into it. Just look at alot to get familar and if it looks off just wait for another pne.

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[rms13]

Originally Posted by hxcmilkshake

Generally speaking you'll be ok with the lower grades for those Teds but if you do venture '51 and earlier, you can run into it. Just look at alot to get familar and if it looks off just wait for another pne.

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Thanks, just bought a 51 Bowman off eBay haha


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[deathwished13]

Just keep an eye out for sellers that only seem to sell 7+ would be my advice not that some guys don't only deal in high grade but fit me it's a immediate red flag if I see a seller that doesn't even have any low grade inventory.
Same with raw if they don't have any cards with noticable wear it's also a red flag for me

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[rms13]

Originally Posted by deathwished13

Just keep an eye out for sellers that only seem to sell 7+ would be my advice not that some guys don't only deal in high grade but fit me it's a immediate red flag if I see a seller that doesn't even have any low grade inventory.
Same with raw if they don't have any cards with noticable wear it's also a red flag for me

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Thanks. My first graded vintage purchase was a 1956 Duke Snider 7. Looking at the seller now and 90% of the stuff they’re selling is 7 or higher. Mostly mid level HOF or non HOF stars like Snider. And they have a lot of nice looking raw cards. I should have started this post before buying anything. Thanks for everyone’s advice. I’ll definitely do more research before buying anything else


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[Cmount76]

Sadly, trimming and alterations have moved from high end, high grade Hall of Famers to semi-stars to commons. The card doctors are exploiting every angle...

Do you homework on the card and the seller. If you can trace the previous ownership (as best as one can) through a site like VCP, that can also help.

For me, there are cards that I desperately want, but if they have been through certain hands, I steer far clear of them.

[mfw13]

Just remember....you can return anything you purchase on EBay for pretty much any reason. So I wouldn't be afraid to buy raw cards on EBay.

Just examine the card closely and measure it once you receive it, and/or compare it to another card from the same year/release, and if you're not happy return it.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Just remember....you can return anything you purchase on EBay for pretty much any reason. So I wouldn't be afraid to buy raw cards on EBay.

Just examine the card closely and measure it once you receive it, and/or compare it to another card from the same year/release, and if you're not happy return it.

I don't like this advice. This is not how I would buy or expect my buyer's to purchase cards. Many vintage cards are cut weird and vary in sizes. This is abusing the eBay return policy. I have bought a few cards that were smaller in size, but that did not give me proof that they were trimmed.

If you tried to return a card because it was slightly smaller, I would fight you on eBay to the end. Just because you think a card was trimmed it doesn't give you the right to test out the card and make the seller pay $8 for shipping back and forth.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

I don't like this advice. This is not how I would buy or expect my buyer's to purchase cards. Many vintage cards are cut weird and vary in sizes. This is abusing the eBay return policy. I have bought a few cards that were smaller in size, but that did not give me proof that they were trimmed.

If you tried to return a card because it was slightly smaller, I would fight you on eBay to the end. Just because you think a card was trimmed it doesn't give you the right to test out the card and make the seller pay $8 for shipping back and forth.

The bolded....

Umm, yes it does. Why would anybody keep a card they thought was trimmed? C'mon.

That being said, I would hope they knew what they were doing before they forced a return...or purchased the card in the first place.

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

I don't like this advice. This is not how I would buy or expect my buyer's to purchase cards. Many vintage cards are cut weird and vary in sizes. This is abusing the eBay return policy. I have bought a few cards that were smaller in size, but that did not give me proof that they were trimmed.



If you tried to return a card because it was slightly smaller, I would fight you on eBay to the end. Just because you think a card was trimmed it doesn't give you the right to test out the card and make the seller pay $8 for shipping back and forth.

On expensive cards I will ask you to measure and if you do and its still short when I get it, its going back. Had this with a Dr J RC I bought. Maybe it was cut weird from the factory but I will just get one that measures properly. And if the seller has any issue with that they will lose.

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[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

The bolded....

Umm, yes it does. Why would anybody keep a card they thought was trimmed? C'mon.

That being said, I would hope they knew what they were doing before they forced a return...or purchased the card in the first place.

The overreaction to trimming is out of control these days. I have seen many posts on here that people assume are trimming and are very common cuts on older cards from the factory. Measuring cards is also not a way to verify trimming. Thinking a card is trimmed because of a slight variance in size is not worth a return and I stick by that fully.

The only way I would force a return for a trimmed card is if it is obvious. Evidence under a loupe or significantly smaller. Just comparing to another card and assuming trimmed for a slightly smaller size is not acceptable.

I can't wait for things to open up and I can buy/sell/trade cards in person. I specifically don't sell cards on eBay that aren't graded if they are more than $50 raw. People will get out the microscope and only keep what they can profit on.

Bigger than the issue of trimming these days is fake cards. Everyone here that wants to be a vintage collector needs to grab commons from every year and a magnifying loupe. You need to see how the cards are printed under magnification. I also recommend trimming common cards yourself and seeing how the edges look under a loupe. It becomes pretty obvious for vintage when an edge is cut with any tool. The best of the best card doctors can make it almost impossible to tell, but those are very few of the trimmed cards.

[oplum29]

Originally Posted by Stifle

Depends on the money you have invested into them.

ding ding ding!!!

honestly, i always grew up on the notion of you "don't buy to invest, buy for fun", and i think the same applies to vintage, especially right now with trimmed cards and manipulation, it's crazy.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

The overreaction to trimming is out of control these days. I have seen many posts on here that people assume are trimming and are very common cuts on older cards from the factory. Measuring cards is also not a way to verify trimming. Thinking a card is trimmed because of a slight variance in size is not worth a return and I stick by that fully.



The only way I would force a return for a trimmed card is if it is obvious. Evidence under a loupe or significantly smaller. Just comparing to another card and assuming trimmed for a slightly smaller size is not acceptable.



I can't wait for things to open up and I can buy/sell/trade cards in person. I specifically don't sell cards on eBay that aren't graded if they are more than $50 raw. People will get out the microscope and only keep what they can profit on.



Bigger than the issue of trimming these days is fake cards. Everyone here that wants to be a vintage collector needs to grab commons from every year and a magnifying loupe. You need to see how the cards are printed under magnification. I also recommend trimming common cards yourself and seeing how the edges look under a loupe. It becomes pretty obvious for vintage when an edge is cut with any tool. The best of the best card doctors can make it almost impossible to tell, but those are very few of the trimmed cards.

I agree with this.

That's why I said I would hope the buyer knew what they were doing.

Size, especially on vintage, is not a foolproof way of determining trimming. Like you say, sizes varied, cuts varied. Examining the cards in other ways is much more accurate. Sometimes trimmed cards aren't even short.

All that being said, if I think a card is trimmed, insta-return.

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[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by hxcmilkshake

On expensive cards I will ask you to measure and if you do and its still short when I get it, its going back. Had this with a Dr J RC I bought. Maybe it was cut weird from the factory but I will just get one that measures properly. And if the seller has any issue with that they will lose.

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You are an experienced buyer and made a reasonable request. I would never sell a card that expensive raw, but if I did I would be sending you high resolution images lined up with a ruler.

I think the biggest issue I have is when the poster gave advice to a new collector of vintage to buy raw and then send back if they weren't happy. If someone is new into vintage I would never give them that advice. They don't know what a trimmed card is and what the measurement tolerances are for cards.

Buying graded is safer for most people new to vintage even with trimming happening. I would rather have a new vintage collector buy a trimmed card than paid a lot for a fake that they learn about 6 months later when they get their PSA graded return. The amount of fake Williams cards on eBay are crazy and I saw a few that were listed as original and are obvious fakes.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

I think the biggest issue I have is when the poster gave advice to a new collector of vintage to buy raw and then send back if they weren't happy. If someone is new into vintage I would never give them that advice. They don't know what a trimmed card is and what the measurement tolerances are for cards.

That was me....

The OP asked whether or not he should be afraid buying raw on EBay.

I was simply explaining why I don't think he should be afraid (i.e. because of EBay's return policies).

[rms13]

Originally Posted by mfw13

That was me....

The OP asked whether or not he should be afraid buying raw on EBay.

I was simply explaining why I don't think he should be afraid (i.e. because of EBay's return policies).

I’m am OP, I am actually concerned about raw and graded. Probably more concerned about graded because I’ve seen a long list of outed trimmed PSA cards that went through PWWC and a lot are lower grades. I’m more concerned about getting a compromised graded card because of the premium price. But I appreciate everyone’s opinions and advice here’s. Thanks to everyone for the conversation!


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[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by rms13

I’m am OP, I am actually concerned about raw and graded. Probably more concerned about graded because I’ve seen a long list of outed trimmed PSA cards that went through PWWC and a lot are lower grades. I’m more concerned about getting a compromised graded card because of the premium price. But I appreciate everyone’s opinions and advice here’s. Thanks to everyone for the conversation!


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Teach yourself how to detect alterations. There is no substitute for your own abilities.

Good luck

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[salas1991]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

The overreaction to trimming is out of control these days. I have seen many posts on here that people assume are trimming and are very common cuts on older cards from the factory. Measuring cards is also not a way to verify trimming. Thinking a card is trimmed because of a slight variance in size is not worth a return and I stick by that fully.

The only way I would force a return for a trimmed card is if it is obvious. Evidence under a loupe or significantly smaller. Just comparing to another card and assuming trimmed for a slightly smaller size is not acceptable.

^^^^^^^^^

Cards not being factory cut to exactly 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 was a thing well into the late 80s. Definitely a case of the new hobby blood being completely out of the loupe.

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Sometimes trimmed cards aren't even short.

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That's a really good point!