LeBron Exquisite /99 - altered & damaged

[theLUCKYshow]

Originally Posted by Siberian13

No one is scared of your opinion. I’m sure some are embarrassed for you by having that actual opinion though. Didn’t you post that knowing the27guy didn’t post all the private messages back and forth with buybuymj and that the27guy had those messages weeks ago? I think people are confused why you keep defending someone who would do these things. People on here seem to really like this Adam guy for whatever reason. But from what I’ve seen in this thread, I would not associate myself with anyone like him or Eric.

I've agreed with you guys on a lot of things and I've also disagreed. On this one I disagree.

And I'll explain it again since you wanted me to stay quiet. I just can't look past Adam's responses. He seems to genuinely think buybuymj is the one thats confused. Heck by the end of their messages buybuymj IS totally confused but that's because Adam just doesnt get it.

Feel free to disagree but I dont respond well to people who shush me.

Originally Posted by JayConley

I want to make it clear that I wasn't defending Adam. Adam very much knows this. I just wanted to convey that his sorry was "I'm truly sorry for this", not "I'm sorry I got caught". I told Adam that I believe there's more to it than he has said. I've long thought he stood to lose some type of equity here.

Shouldn't have dropped your name in my response. That made it confusing. I apologize.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Starman101]

Anyone remember my thread from last year regarding 97-98 Mislabeled Illuminator BNC was selling???

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1176488

In fact Eric is such a great, honest seller that this card still remains mislabeled to this very day

Unreal

https://www.ebay.com/itm/97-98-Micha...229d:rk:1:pf:0

The writing was on the wall a long time ago

Terrible

[pingbling23]

Anytime a bomb is dropped a lesser known poster tries to derail it. Coincidence, I think not. Also, we have people speaking for 27guy now, geez.

[RYBOWSKI97]

Originally Posted by JayConley

I want to make it clear that I wasn't defending Adam. Adam very much knows this. I just wanted to convey that his sorry was "I'm truly sorry for this", not "I'm sorry I got caught". I told Adam that I believe there's more to it than he has said. I've long thought he stood to lose some type of equity here.

no one cares, you are now the spokesperson of the spokesperson. thats a bottom of the barrell job man. i wonder when u go away who will start speaking for you?

[ninjacookies]

Someone please make a chain of representation diagram for this thread.

Probably more complex than El Chapo before the FBI took down his operation.

[RYBOWSKI97]

Originally Posted by Starman101

Anyone remember my thread from last year regarding 97-98 Mislabeled Illuminator BNC was selling???

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1176488

In fact Eric is such a great, honest seller that this card still remains mislabeled to this very day

Unreal

https://www.ebay.com/itm/97-98-Micha...229d:rk:1:pf:0

The writing was on the wall a long time ago

Terrible

he and bigboyd must of took the same business ethics course.

[RYBOWSKI97]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

well done, this is hilarious.

[theLUCKYshow]

So am I the white knight now? I'm Asian so I guess the yellow knight.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[ReggieEvansPC]

Originally Posted by Starman101

Anyone remember my thread from last year regarding 97-98 Mislabeled Illuminator BNC was selling???

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1176488

In fact Eric is such a great, honest seller that this card still remains mislabeled to this very day

Unreal

https://www.ebay.com/itm/97-98-Micha...229d:rk:1:pf:0

The writing was on the wall a long time ago

Terrible

I only took a quick glance, but interesting to see who was also defending him in that thread...

[ReggieEvansPC]

Originally Posted by theLUCKYshow

I've agreed with you guys on a lot of things and I've also disagreed. On this one I disagree.

And I'll explain it again since you wanted me to stay quiet. I just can't look past Adam's responses. He seems to genuinely think buybuymj is the one thats confused. Heck by the end of their messages buybuymj IS totally confused but that's because Adam just doesnt get it.

Feel free to disagree but I dont respond well to people who shush me.
Shouldn't have dropped your name in my response. That made it confusing. I apologize.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Are we talking about the same 27guy? The one who everyone swears has such a font of knowledge about the hobby? The same guy who goes on podcasts, made podcasts, and posts everywhere about what (and who, unfortunately) that he knows?

I'm not the most hobby-minded person. I don't care about MJ's, can't tell you about any pre-panini insert, and I struggle to stay focused during even simple threads, but on multiple occasions during my time I've had to deal with non-english speaking (or english as a second language) sellers and buyers. You'd be silly to think Adam is any different (or naive). That message from buybuymj is probably one of the easiest things to comprehend for someone whose primary language, I'm assuming, is not english.

You can't on one-hand praise Adam as some sort of card deity, and then think he's stupid on the other. He's not that sort of person. I know it, the forum knows it, and I think you know it to some degree.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by ReggieEvansPC

I only took a quick glance, but interesting to see who was also defending him in that thread...

Haha. I didn't even peep that out.

Good lord. It's like Adam has a premade template all sorted out just for Eric accusations.

'Have done 6-7 dealings with him. All high-end.'

Yeah. I'm sure you have. Wonder exactly what those high end dealings were now. And if there were any 'incentivized bonuses' involved.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Haha. I didn't even peep that out.

Good lord. It's like Adam has a premade template all sorted out just for Eric accusations.

'Have done 6-7 dealings with him. All high-end.'

Yeah. I'm sure you have. Wonder exactly what those high end dealings were now. And if there were any 'incentivized bonuses' involved.

Where is 27?

[sjay2k]

I've just read this thread for the first time today and I am quite surprised at the27guy's involvement here.

From 27-29 November, the27guy makes about 60 posts in this thread. He was generally defensive of the allegations against BNC. He challenged rookies to "stake your reputation on this situation". He stated "It's important that we know what happened." In response to someone's concerns specifically about card #87/99, he stated "We'll get to the bottom of this." He later stated that "Trimming is evil and bad and if you do it, you should go to jail." His posts are replete with theories and conjecture about a "third party" who might have been responsible for the trimming/s.

Next, on 29 November -- after all of the posts above -- buybuymj sent an eBay message to the27guy, which clearly explains the damning evidence against BNC in relation to #87/99. He even refers to it as the "smoking gun".

Yet the very next day, the27guy comes on here and essentially flirts with BNC (#646). He refers to BNC as his "brotha" and makes a winky-face at him. Remarkably, he does not post the information from buybuymj.

It is not until about 10 days later, when the truth begins to surface, that the27guy begins to distance himself from BNC in this thread.

I am not an active contributor here, but I have always viewed the27guy as an ethical and reputable person. That is to say, I came into this thread with a fairly positive view of him. However, it is unfathomable to me that the27guy would sit on what was critical information from buybuymj if he was legitimately interested in the truth coming to light, as he had claimed. I feel like there is some sort of explanation for all of this (perhaps some sort of business relationship with BNC or just a misguided sense of loyalty?). In any event, it is a strange hill upon which to die.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Soleternity

My friend, your point is well taken. Here's where I have a slight disagreement with you. In this thread, two things are happening simultaneously. (1) There is an abundance of evidence against BNC. Agreed. I'm with you all on that. I've raised a small concern, but failure to address it is not dispositive. (Which is to say that even if my question is never resolved, there's enough evidence to convict. Yep.) (2) There is a bloodthirsty mob that wants to exact revenge against BNC. This is a separate issue from whether BNC is guilty. That there is a mob somewhat understandable. Cards get people really emotional. But it looks silly. It leads members to say exaggerated, hyperbolic things, distorting the truth, which I could quote for you by the dozens. My point is: Settle down. Return to rational discourse.

I think you missed the point of the whole thread. It was to inform collectors of altered Exquisite LeBron RPAs. As a result it revealed a dealer who was involved in altering cards. There is no lynch mob. This person isn't even banned on this forum.I am not sure what type of revenge you are implying someone would do. You are just engaging in hyperbole. The community has been warned and it is a good thing. You can deal with BNC at your own risk.

[ReggieEvansPC]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Where is 27?

On Instagram, 8 hours ago.

[thenwhatjk]

I just want to say that I’m really excited for Adam’s extremely long, extremely well written return to this thread

[jmscoggin]

Originally Posted by Soleternity

This is the key question. I'd like to know your answer as well.

What should the punishment be? Well, first of all, what are the charges?

#1-Trimming/altering card #87.
#2-Lying about trimming/altering card #87.
#3-Not committing to disclosing #87 as trimmed/altered before selling.

Am I missing any?

As far as the punishment goes, I'm not part of any sanctioning body. I'm a lone commenter on a message board. The only punishment I can mete out is that I'll avoid doing business with him. And I'll alert any associates of mine who are thinking of dealing with him to this thread. And I'll offer my reasoned judgment and conclusions to the community writ large, which could have harmful reputational effects.

What say you?

Great questions but unfortunately I have no solid answers. I'm no different than you in that I have no authoritative powers to uphold over Eric or anyone else for that matter. Even if I did, this type of situation is one where prosecution would be next to impossible, especially at this point.

As things stand now, Eric (and other alleged conspirators) have done nothing legally wrong. Trimming or altering your private property is a perfectly acceptable practice (legally, hobby wise is a different story). Where it would not be is if trimming with the intent to later sell and defraud. Was that the intent with the trimming? I think only a fool would say that it wasn't but you can't prosecute on assumptions.

What you can do with assumptions and allegations is refuse to deal with someone that you believe to be dishonest and lack ethics and integrity. I think that is where we are at now. I was never a buyer from Eric and likely never would have been and based on the types of cards he sells,most posters in this thread are in the same boat. What can we do to show him we disagree with his actions? Not much in this situation other than what we are already doing, put this case out there for as many people to see as possible. The internet is forever if people choose to do research.

Where all of this could change is for more digging to be done. It would be naive to think the Lebron's are the first and only cards they have altered. Who carves on the Mona Lisa as their initial foray into the alteration realm?

It is almost guaranteed that they altered many lesser cards first to perfect the process and system. It is also likely that some or all of those lesser cards have been sold. That is where things can change. Should those sales be uncovered and alterations be proven, now criminal charges can be filed should the buyers of those items wish to do so. Would law enforcement take those cases? Highly unlikely which is sad.

Another possibility, which based on the postings of a few in this thread, is that the buyers won't say anything as they don't want to harm the value of their own collections. We already know this is true as multiple people have said this is the case, most notably, 27 himself. "Nothing happens in a vacuum".

At the end of the day, a long answer to your relatively short questions is that ... nothing is likely to happen and there isn't much we can do other than to educate others about what has happened. This is why people continue to scam in this hobby, there isn't any deterrent not to other than integrity and that is a sorely lacking trait in today's society.

Originally Posted by Onions

Well done. As more of a lurker on these boards than a poster, you have nailed it. Adam has something to lose here. No clue what it is, but he does. I'm no detective, but this also sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

There are probably only 2-3 people who have the real answers here, no way we get them directly. If BNC was clean, he could provide the proof with very little difficulty. He is clearly culpable and appears to run cards through a 3rd party, possibly for plausible deniability and also to set markets. Pretty slimy to say the least.

Also, would anyone really put a knife to cards like this without some assurance that BGS wouldn't reject them as altered? If I was trying to run a scam like this, you better believe that I would be positive that they would find their way into a slab no matter what. I know that angle was mentioned before, but it seems likely there is some legitimacy to it.

I agree, if Eric was clean he could have very easily proved it and washed his hands. He didn't do that, quite the opposite. He obfuscated and deflected. Many have said in this thread how detailed and thorough Eric is. Yet we are then to believe that he has no idea when/how/from who he bought/sold certain cards and/or had them graded? Or that he is so absent minded that he may possibly have owned the same super high end Lebron cards multiple different times without knowing? Or that he owned these same cards multiple times without knowing AND didn't catch that they used to be damaged and now aren't? Sure.

I feel the same about the BGS part but have been shouted down by a few people on it. They say it isn't possible and that it is a ridiculous accusation. Really? As ridiculous as someone taking and Exacto to a $100,000 + card? If there is money to be made, people can be bought and systems can be sidestepped. It's always been this way and always will be. You can't convince me that there wasn't an inside guy involved at BGS.

Originally Posted by theLUCKYshow

So am I the white knight now? I'm Asian so I guess the yellow knight.

Yes ... but funny.

Originally Posted by ReggieEvansPC

Are we talking about the same 27guy? The one who everyone swears has such a font of knowledge about the hobby? The same guy who goes on podcasts, made podcasts, and posts everywhere about what (and who, unfortunately) that he knows?

I'm not the most hobby-minded person. I don't care about MJ's, can't tell you about any pre-panini insert, and I struggle to stay focused during even simple threads, but on multiple occasions during my time I've had to deal with non-english speaking (or english as a second language) sellers and buyers. You'd be silly to think Adam is any different (or naive). That message from buybuymj is probably one of the easiest things to comprehend for someone whose primary language, I'm assuming, is not english.

You can't on one-hand praise Adam as some sort of card deity, and then think he's stupid on the other. He's not that sort of person. I know it, the forum knows it, and I think you know it to some degree.

Spot on.

[splum]

Originally Posted by jmscoggin

It is almost guaranteed that they altered many lesser cards first to perfect the process and system. It is also likely that some or all of those lesser cards have been sold.

I'm not sure if I mentioned this in here, but a friend of mine bought a BGS 9 Topps Chrome Lebron RC from buynicecards that has a pretty suspect looking edge + corner that was actually submitted around the time (either a month before or after, can't remember) of the Exquisite RPAs in question. You're almost certainly right about this.

[DajuanWagner]

Originally Posted by thenwhatjk

I just want to say that I’m really excited for Adam’s extremely long, extremely well written return to this thread

Well, that makes one of us...……...

[chezball]

Something smells

[rogermaris]

Originally Posted by jmscoggin

I feel the same about the BGS part but have been shouted down by a few people on it. They say it isn't possible and that it is a ridiculous accusation. Really? As ridiculous as someone taking and Exacto to a $100,000 + card? If there is money to be made, people can be bought and systems can be sidestepped. It's always been this way and always will be. You can't convince me that there wasn't an inside guy involved at BGS.

This sounds like an outlandish conspiracy theory until you learn that PSA knew the Wagner card was trimmed before they graded it:

https://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/it...ntry-1.1632554

The relevant passage:

PSA grader Bill Hughes, a member of the team that inspected the Gretzky T206 Wagner, admitted he knew the card had been cut from a sheet when he graded the card. "We were aware of that when the card came to PSA," he is quoted as saying in "The Card." "This particular card was obviously cut...The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacreligious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it."

[rustywest]

Originally Posted by Onions

Also, would anyone really put a knife to cards like this without some assurance that BGS wouldn't reject them as altered? If I was trying to run a scam like this, you better believe that I would be positive that they would find their way into a slab no matter what. I know that angle was mentioned before, but it seems likely there is some legitimacy to it.

Originally Posted by jmscoggin

I feel the same about the BGS part but have been shouted down by a few people on it. They say it isn't possible and that it is a ridiculous accusation. Really? As ridiculous as someone taking and Exacto to a $100,000 + card? If there is money to be made, people can be bought and systems can be sidestepped. It's always been this way and always will be. You can't convince me that there wasn't an inside guy involved at BGS.

Agree with you guys on this. If there are any white knights left they will scoff at this notion but its very plausible.

Right you are jmscoggin - more digging to be done.

I can't dig but I can read.

[JayConley]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

This sounds like an outlandish conspiracy theory until you learn that PSA knew the Wagner card was trimmed before they graded it:

https://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/it...ntry-1.1632554

The relevant passage:

PSA grader Bill Hughes, a member of the team that inspected the Gretzky T206 Wagner, admitted he knew the card had been cut from a sheet when he graded the card. "We were aware of that when the card came to PSA," he is quoted as saying in "The Card." "This particular card was obviously cut...The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacreligious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it."

It's not outlandish at all. Think about "Raw Card Review" from BGS. What exactly is the purpose of that? The same day turnaround is nice, but why was it all of a sudden necessary long after the advent of grading? It's my personal belief that it was done to encourage re-subbing.

[ThoseBackPages]

dirty

[DajuanWagner]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

dirty

elaborate...…….