Panini Blockchain

[blevins26]

Originally Posted by smalltown

Not to be flip. But i think you're a bit confused. The physical card is a "gift" and not tied to the Blockchain Digital card in any way. From Panini's own site:

"The Blockchain cards and the physical cards, are separate assets and both are yours to do with what you like."


Further the Physical card and Blockchain card may not even look the same. The physical card will be a "representation" of the Blockchain card not an exact duplicate. Again from Panini's site:

"Please note that autograph style or swatch orientation may vary, from the Blockchain version to the physical version."

Perhaps I'm confused I guess. I think it's open for interpretation, meaning you have your perspective and I have mine. I think that much of the terminology Panini is using is on the recommendation of their legal team.

My assumption is that there are legal reasons Panini is including the physical card as a "gift" and legal reasons why they are saying that each are separate and you can do what you want with them. Best guess is that they don't want the SEC claiming they've made an unregulated currency/investment vehicle.

In the end, the free market can decide whether these assets are truly separate or not by assigning value to them as a pair vs. individually. Me personally, if I'm paying you for the physical card, I want the virtual equivalent of the card as well. The free market may say otherwise and, at this stage in the game, I actually think that not too many people care about the blockchain aspect.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

If you read what I replied to, you would understand. Instead you focussed on attacking me to make whatever point.

Well, I apologize for that. I had no idea what you were talking about, seeing as you know I've never used the platform. The rest of your explanation is helpful, although I disagree that it would still be doing well today without the changes. Panini offers free digital cards through Panini Dunk on every retail box purchase I believe. I don't know the details, but the market looks non-existent for those. 32 Luka sales in two months, with a number of relisted items most likely because the buyer didn't realize what they were buying.

This is a cash grab by Panini and nothing more. It's not innovative. It's them hitching a "digital card" to a physical card and claiming it's something new so that it's not as blatant as them directly selling the cards at the pinnacle of the hobby.

A box of NT direct is something like $300-$350. If the Kobe gets $15k, that's the equivalent of revenue from 50 boxes or 12.5 cases worth of NT without producing 500 cards, getting 150+ autos, and using the equivalent of say one full jersey. The actual cost to produce that Kobe is next to nothing. I don't know if he's contractually obligated to sign X cards or gets paid per card signed, but there's no way the true cost of production for that card is more than $100. You cannot find another business that can generate that kind of profit margin.

[blevins26]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Well, I apologize for that. I had no idea what you were talking about, seeing as you know I've never used the platform. The rest of your explanation is helpful, although I disagree that it would still be doing well today without the changes. Panini offers free digital cards through Panini Dunk on every retail box purchase I believe. I don't know the details, but the market looks non-existent for those. 32 Luka sales in two months, with a number of relisted items most likely because the buyer didn't realize what they were buying.

This is a cash grab by Panini and nothing more. It's not innovative. It's them hitching a "digital card" to a physical card and claiming it's something new so that it's not as blatant as them directly selling the cards at the pinnacle of the hobby.

A box of NT direct is something like $300-$350. If the Kobe gets $15k, that's the equivalent of revenue from 50 boxes or 12.5 cases worth of NT without producing 500 cards, getting 150+ autos, and using the equivalent of say one full jersey. The actual cost to produce that Kobe is next to nothing. I don't know if he's contractually obligated to sign X cards or gets paid per card signed, but there's no way the true cost of production for that card is more than $100. You cannot find another business that can generate that kind of profit margin.

I think you're oversimplifying the "$100" cost. Take $100 and go try to produce your own Kobe Bryant auto and then see how much you can sell it for. Point being, "cost" isn't just the cost to produce that 1 actual card. It's the legal fees, it's the NBA license, it's building a brand where people will actually believe that it's truly a card signed by Kobe.

I don't disagree that this is a cash grab by Panini. But jersey cards are a cash grab. Autographed cards are a cash grab. Capitalism is a cash grab.

[smalltown]

Originally Posted by blevins26

I think it's open for interpretation, meaning you have your perspective and I have mine.

I don't think it's really up for interpretation at all. The physical card and digital image are two separate assets. Panini says that clearly. There is absolutely nothing that ties them together once they are sold.

The digital card you see for sale is "the" Blockchain card. It is not a scan of the physical card and is not intended to be.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by blevins26

I think you're oversimplifying the "$100" cost. Take $100 and go try to produce your own Kobe Bryant auto and then see how much you can sell it for. Point being, "cost" isn't just the cost to produce that 1 actual card. It's the legal fees, it's the NBA license, it's building a brand where people will actually believe that it's truly a card signed by Kobe.

I don't disagree that this is a cash grab by Panini. But jersey cards are a cash grab. Autographed cards are a cash grab. Capitalism is a cash grab.

I'm not oversimplifying it. It just depends on how you want to account for those costs, and what perspective you're looking from. Those advertising, licensing, and legal fees are already paid for. The new monetary investment Panini is putting into this product is minimal. All of these Blockchain sales are nearly pure profit. How much do we honestly think the Blockchain infrastructure cost them?

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Well, I apologize for that. I had no idea what you were talking about, seeing as you know I've never used the platform. The rest of your explanation is helpful, although I disagree that it would still be doing well today without the changes. Panini offers free digital cards through Panini Dunk on every retail box purchase I believe. I don't know the details, but the market looks non-existent for those. 32 Luka sales in two months, with a number of relisted items most likely because the buyer didn't realize what they were buying.

This is a cash grab by Panini and nothing more. It's not innovative. It's them hitching a "digital card" to a physical card and claiming it's something new so that it's not as blatant as them directly selling the cards at the pinnacle of the hobby.

A box of NT direct is something like $300-$350. If the Kobe gets $15k, that's the equivalent of revenue from 50 boxes or 12.5 cases worth of NT without producing 500 cards, getting 150+ autos, and using the equivalent of say one full jersey. The actual cost to produce that Kobe is next to nothing. I don't know if he's contractually obligated to sign X cards or gets paid per card signed, but there's no way the true cost of production for that card is more than $100. You cannot find another business that can generate that kind of profit margin.

The panini version never took off because it also segregates cards based on free and pay to play. Once that wall goes up, its hard for any app to catch on fire. People, or collectors in general do not like being classified into groups that dont have the same opportunity. A good example of this would be the way Prizm is heading today. Imagine Gold and black golds were only available for select buyers who spent lots of money and everyone who spent less had no chance of obtaining them? So the golds and black golds are sold of separately and all products including hobby have the same thing everyone else can easily buy in free and cheaper packs. People would stop buying it. Thats essentially what happens when classify users by $$$ levels. Panini also mirrors their live sets. Topps apps didnt do that. They had their own exclusive sets and inserts. There was no competing to get the same thing you could from a pack of physical cards. It makes a difference and opens up to a wider audience.

Im a fan of digital trading apps because of more than just collectability . It has advantages that I like much like Epack UD does. I can bust packs, grab inserts and cards that actually have demand and the best part of it it? Its accessible and can be kept online in storage taking up no space. I dont have to physically search out who has the product I want...its all online to buy at any time. I can sell or buy a card without having to ship it. If you add a BST platform with a paid for escrow service, it makes it even better than ebay. While this may not be the app that makes all that happen, its possible of being a gateway to it.

Imagine you can buy Prizm basketball like Epacks from UD. Imagine you can keep all that inventory online... Send it for grading, trade it...sell it..buy it.. all with a click of a button and if you want...have COMC or another service ship you that card to have it in hand? And not having to store it all physically at home? Not having to ship anything to anyone hoping it gets there whether its local or international. I believe thats possible. Maybe not with this release of how Panini does it, but hopefully with evolution of such an app as they introduce these product.

What if this is a test for NT basketball. What is next year instead of releasing cases of product, they just put all the inventory on Epacks, Ecases. You buy it online and open it. Whatever you pull gets put into your collection online. From there you BST it the way you like within a platform that lets you do that. End cost is paying a % back to the platform owner for providing the service? At then you either have that card in hand or you sold it. Want it in hand? Have it sent to you. Wants it sitting in a collection so its easily accessible to BST? Great, its right there for you to move whenever you want.

This is what Star was Card trader was moving towards before they killed the app with changing dynamics. I believe it would have worked. It was never given the opportunity. UD Goodwin was given the opportunity. It seems to be working.

[blevins26]

Originally Posted by smalltown

I don't think it's really up for interpretation at all. The physical card and digital image are two separate assets. Panini says that clearly. There is absolutely nothing that ties them together once they are sold.

The digital card you see for sale is "the" Blockchain card. It is not a scan of the physical card and is not intended to be.

This explanation from the Cardboard Connection may help everyone understand this better.

If you read the article, the gist is that the blockchain (i.e. "digital") card is meant to be the virtual ledger for who owns the physical card in the real world.

Note that all the verbiage in the article always refers to the digital asset (as opposed to the physical card). It is my firm belief that Panini was instructed by their legal team NOT to say that the blockchain data conveys ownership of the physical card. Reason for this is that they don't want to have legal obligation in the case where 1 person sues the other over who owns the card.

Obviously, the physical card exists in the physical world and the digital card exists in the virtual world so, yeah, they can pretty easily be sold separately. But the intent here is for buyers to WANT to have the Panini blockchain to reflect that blevins26 owns the Honus Wagner 1/1 and if smalltown buys it, smalltown is going to want the blockchain to reflect his/her ownership. Once the integrity of the physical card vs. distributed ledger is broken, it devalues the card because the buyer can't trustlessly verify the authenticity of the card.

[Comix Guy]

Originally Posted by blevins26

This explanation from the Cardboard Connection may help everyone understand this better.

If you read the article, the gist is that the blockchain (i.e. "digital") card is meant to be the virtual ledger for who owns the physical card in the real world.

Note that all the verbiage in the article always refers to the digital asset (as opposed to the physical card). It is my firm belief that Panini was instructed by their legal team NOT to say that the blockchain data conveys ownership of the physical card. Reason for this is that they don't want to have legal obligation in the case where 1 person sues the other over who owns the card.

Obviously, the physical card exists in the physical world and the digital card exists in the virtual world so, yeah, they can pretty easily be sold separately. But the intent here is for buyers to WANT to have the Panini blockchain to reflect that blevins26 owns the Honus Wagner 1/1 and if smalltown buys it, smalltown is going to want the blockchain to reflect his/her ownership. Once the integrity of the physical card vs. distributed ledger is broken, it devalues the card because the buyer can't trustlessly verify the authenticity of the card.

Are there lots of 1 of 1 logoman cards being faked and sold on the open market?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

The panini version never took off because it also segregates cards based on free and pay to play. Once that wall goes up, its hard for any app to catch on fire. People, or collectors in general do not like being classified into groups that dont have the same opportunity. A good example of this would be the way Prizm is heading today. Imagine Gold and black golds were only available for select buyers who spent lots of money and everyone who spent less had no chance of obtaining them? So the golds and black golds are sold of separately and all products including hobby have the same thing everyone else can easily buy in free and cheaper packs. People would stop buying it. Thats essentially what happens when classify users by $$$ levels. Panini also mirrors their live sets. Topps apps didnt do that. They had their own exclusive sets and inserts. There was no competing to get the same thing you could from a pack of physical cards. It makes a difference and opens up to a wider audience.

Im a fan of digital trading apps because of more than just collectability . It has advantages that I like much like Epack UD does. I can bust packs, grab inserts and cards that actually have demand and the best part of it it? Its accessible and can be kept online in storage taking up no space. I dont have to physically search out who has the product I want...its all online to buy at any time. I can sell or buy a card without having to ship it. If you add a BST platform with a paid for escrow service, it makes it even better than ebay. While this may not be the app that makes all that happen, its possible of being a gateway to it.

Imagine you can buy Prizm basketball like Epacks from UD. Imagine you can keep all that inventory online... Send it for grading, trade it...sell it..buy it.. all with a click of a button and if you want...have COMC or another service ship you that card to have it in hand? And not having to store it all physically at home? Not having to ship anything to anyone hoping it gets there whether its local or international. I believe thats possible. Maybe not with this release of how Panini does it, but hopefully with evolution of such an app as they introduce these product.

What if this is a test for NT basketball. What is next year instead of releasing cases of product, they just put all the inventory on Epacks, Ecases. You buy it online and open it. Whatever you pull gets put into your collection online. From there you BST it the way you like within a platform that lets you do that. End cost is paying a % back to the platform owner for providing the service? At then you either have that card in hand or you sold it. Want it in hand? Have it sent to you. Wants it sitting in a collection so its easily accessible to BST? Great, its right there for you to move whenever you want.

This is what Star was Card trader was moving towards before they killed the app with changing dynamics. I believe it would have worked. It was never given the opportunity. UD Goodwin was given the opportunity. It seems to be working.

I like the way you think (even though these wouldn't really be "digital" cards ). But I don't think this is where Panini goes with it. And if they do, how does distribution work? Could the bots clean out the whole supply? Or would there be a true account limit? Sealed wax collecting and group breaking have provided most of the fuel to the wax market. Does that all go away? If it does, much of the popularity in the hobby's current state will go with it.

Many questions. Not many answers right now.

[smalltown]

Originally Posted by blevins26

But the intent here is for buyers to WANT to have the Panini blockchain to reflect that blevins26 owns the Honus Wagner 1/1 and if smalltown buys it, smalltown is going to want the blockchain to reflect his/her ownership. Once the integrity of the physical card vs. distributed ledger is broken, it devalues the card because the buyer can't trustlessly verify the authenticity of the card.

100% guarantee that the majority of buyers will sell one or other of the assets to recoup costs and or derive some kind of profit. Most likely buyers will divest themselves of digital copy shortly after purchase.

If i have the physical card. And i have proof of purchase of that card. I, and i'd argue most others, would have absolutely no use for the "digital ledger" to verify the authenticity. In fact i'd want to remove myself from Panini's closed, proprietary echo system as soon as possible.

[blevins26]

Originally Posted by smalltown

100% guarantee that the majority of buyers will sell one or other of the assets to recoup costs and or derive some kind of profit. Most likely buyers will divest themselves of digital copy shortly after purchase.

If i have the physical card. And i have proof of purchase of that card. I, and i'd argue most others, would have absolutely no use for the "digital ledger" to verify the authenticity. In fact i'd want to remove myself from Panini's closed, proprietary echo system as soon as possible.

If this is a one-off product then I think time will probably prove you to be correct. On the other hand, if 5 years from now every set features blockchain-verifiable cards (like maybe all 1/1's are on a blockchain or something) then I think time will prove me to be correct.

I'm just trying to explain the concept behind it.

I'm sure when the internet/eBay selling first came about, there were people who were like "why would I ever need to have a PICTURE of a basketball card to sell it??? I'll just describe it in a few sentences and that's good enough!" Then "the market" decided they kind of like being able to see a card (even though we all know a photo on eBay doesn't really tell you whether it's a BGS 8.5 or 10). Imagine buying a card on eBay without a photo today?

[smalltown]

Originally Posted by blevins26

I'm just trying to explain the concept behind it.

I get what you're trying to do. But you're not basing it off what Panini actually says on their website. The physical card and the Blockchain card are two separate assets. They are not tied together. Any bond between the two is strictly up to the purchaser and can be broken at anytime by any owner.

Panini Blockchain is in no way about verifying ownership or authenticity of a physical card. It's about tracking and ownership of a digital image. The only reason the physical "gift" card enters into the equation is so Panini can make money. If this was digital only you don't need to look further than ebay and sales of DUNK logoman to see the market falls somewhere in the sub $40 range.

Bottom line this is about selling standalone cards for aftermarket prices and using the blockchain gimmick to justify it and provide the illusion of additional value.

[M4YH3M1]

If the digital asset does not exactly match the physical card, (as Panini states it does not) then what is the f*cking point really??

Argue that all you pro-blockchain card fanatics.

[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Well, I apologize for that. I had no idea what you were talking about, seeing as you know I've never used the platform. The rest of your explanation is helpful, although I disagree that it would still be doing well today without the changes. Panini offers free digital cards through Panini Dunk on every retail box purchase I believe. I don't know the details, but the market looks non-existent for those. 32 Luka sales in two months, with a number of relisted items most likely because the buyer didn't realize what they were buying.

Not knowing how the Panini digital app goes are there short prints and serial numbered cards?

Some of the Topps ones are low numbered and still well for a digital card especially. It is a far cry from the $4000 we got for a Darth 1/1 though.

[blevins26]

Originally Posted by smalltown

I get what you're trying to do. But you're not basing it off what Panini actually says on their website. The physical card and the Blockchain card are two separate assets. They are not tied together. Any bond between the two is strictly up to the purchaser and can be broken at anytime by any owner.

Panini Blockchain is in no way about verifying ownership or authenticity of a physical card. It's about tracking and ownership of a digital image. The only reason the physical "gift" card enters into the equation is so Panini can make money. If this was digital only you don't need to look further than ebay and sales of DUNK logoman to see the market falls somewhere in the sub $40 range.

Bottom line this is about selling standalone cards for aftermarket prices and using the blockchain gimmick to justify it and provide the illusion of additional value.

I mean, I see your point and I do agree that it's more about $$$ than the benefit to the collector with regard to the whole blockchain concept.

I think this could have been so much more & so much better if it was done properly. Instead it appears to have been slapped together to maximize profit while minimizing investment/risk/commitment on Panini's part.

But, that doesn't stop collectors from using the blockchain aspect as part of the ownership experience.

[ninjacookies]

Pretty crappy utilization of some wonderful technology on Panini's part. Hopefully not a sign of the only things to come.


God bless anyone that pays pack-pulled money for those physical blockchain cards, too.

[nickha2]

$100,000 and they cant even have a zoom feature for the card or say if its game worn.

[smalltown]

Originally Posted by nickha2

$100,000 and they cant even have a zoom feature for the card or say if its game worn.

It's digital - it's not worn at all. The picture you see is the Blockchain image you're purchasing. The physical card is not shown because it is a "gift" and not what is actually for sale. The physical card may not even look like the Blockchain image (although it's likely close).

[smalltown]

Originally Posted by nickha2

$100,000 and they cant even have a zoom feature for the card or say if its game worn.

But since you would like to see.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Cavaliercards

Not knowing how the Panini digital app goes are there short prints and serial numbered cards?

Some of the Topps ones are low numbered and still well for a digital card especially. It is a far cry from the $4000 we got for a Darth 1/1 though.

It looks like many of the cards are serial numbered. Luke’s NT is /75.

I guess the cards have stats on the back and you can “battle” other users to win prizes? It’s like Pokemon with NBA players?

I choose you Lukachu!

[Wiseysez]

Originally Posted by Comix Guy

What price are you going in at?

Since this is BO I was thinking

Generated from my Apple iPhone using tools.sportscard.trade

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by smalltown

It's digital - it's not worn at all. The picture you see is the Blockchain image you're purchasing. The physical card is not shown because it is a "gift" and not what is actually for sale. The physical card may not even look like the Blockchain image (although it's likely close).

I am imagining someone dropping $25k on that Kobe only to get a tag Logoman with a streaky auto that runs off the card.

[smalltown]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I am imagining someone dropping $25k on that Kobe only to get a tag Logoman with a streaky auto that runs off the card.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if a lot of them end up being sticker autos. And of course that means many cases of the autos running off the sticker.

[natbornkiller]

come on guys its 33 percent of original starting point

-panini ceo

[tommyboiazn23]

Someone bought the kobe around 60k? not sure, but it's definitely gone.

Who dropped 60K bags? lol