Heads Up If You Bought the PSA 10 Gary Garter RC from the PWCC Vault: It's Trimmed

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

30-45 seconds is a long time per card, as I have alluded to many times on this board. I would not classify that amount of time to assess one card as going as fast as they can. A 1952 Topps Mantle that looks like a 9 might require more time but most cards can be thoroughly assessed in far less than 45 seconds.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

When you've got 18 potential grades, as PSA does, it should take a good 2-3 minutes to determine which of those 18 grades a card deserves, especially when you are supposed to be looking for trimming, hard to see creases, recoloring, etc.

I could see 30-45 seconds being enough if you only have 5-6 grades to choose from, but not when you've got 18.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

When you've got 18 potential grades, as PSA does, it should take a good 2-3 minutes to determine which of those 18 grades a card deserves, especially when you are supposed to be looking for trimming, hard to see creases, recoloring, etc.

I could see 30-45 seconds being enough if you only have 5-6 grades to choose from, but not when you've got 18.

When someone has been around cards a long time and they are confident in their ability to pick up flaws and to detect alterations, assigning a grade is not that hard nor time consuming. I think that hardest part would be doing this 40 hours a week. I spend a good portion of my week doing it but no way I could do it all day long.

[auburn35]

If anyone wanted to watch the Nat Turner interview live, here's the link.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by auburn35

If anyone wanted to watch the Nat Turner interview live, here's the link.

Pass.

[auburn35]

The Instagram account cardporn posted a decent recap, if anyone wanted to skip the full interview.

Unfortunately, Nat either misunderstood or just decided to go another direction on one of my submitted questions (regarding the review of suspected altered cards) but suggests the research BODA does, makes PSA better. Kind of odd to hear, when PSA is routinely ignoring the proof that is presented and might be used by their grading team in the review. 45:00 mark

Interestingly as it is related to the "review" (PSA grade guarantee) that PSA seems to be ignoring on these altered examples; Nat referenced an off-centered Kobe Bryant RC PSA 10 that was listed for sale on eBay. 34:30 mark
Unlike what we have seen with outed altered cards, when a off-centered PSA 10 (not uncommon) card was noticed, Nat supposedly immediately had PSA pull the certification (apparently while the card was still listed) and then reach out to the seller to buy the card back under the grade guarantee.



https://www.instagram.com/p/CPw9FICM..._web_copy_link

[aro13]

Thank you for posting the link and the recap.

At the 35 minute mark he is asked about the "2019" trimming scandal. He stated he reads blowout and that he had four cards that were determined to be trimmed and he was contacted by the seller and given his money back when he returned the cards. No mention of PSA buying them back. Went on to say that the graders were not perfect but that he was confident they catch most of them.

[mjohnatgt]

He can either be honest or forthright, or not. Waffling is equally unacceptable as lying. Nat has already lost his credibility, IMO.

[CaptSpaulding]

I do not expect Peter to listen but I urge anyone to give 4 mins of their time to listen at this point https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Cbq8W98MY&t=2699s.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by aro13

Thank you for posting the link and the recap.

At the 35 minute mark he is asked about the "2019" trimming scandal. He stated he reads blowout and that he had four cards that were determined to be trimmed and he was contacted by the seller and given his money back when he returned the cards. No mention of PSA buying them back. Went on to say that the graders were not perfect but that he was confident they catch most of them.

If I say it's safe to surf this beach, damnit, it's safe to surf this beach.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

When someone has been around cards a long time and they are confident in their ability to pick up flaws and to detect alterations, assigning a grade is not that hard nor time consuming. I think that hardest part would be doing this 40 hours a week. I spend a good portion of my week doing it but no way I could do it all day long.

What makes you think that PSA graders have been around cards a long time?

It's a soul-sucking minimum wage job...and PSA is desperately hiring tons of new graders to keep up with demand (most of whom are highly likely be inexperienced).

The idea that PSA graders are highly trained experts is laughable....I'm sure that there are a few in the ranks, but I'm guessing that 70-80% of PSA graders are have been doing the job for less than a year, and that a significant portion of new hires have zero experience in the card industry.

[mjohnatgt]

Nat Turner: "Way less than 1% of cards are failed for that reason, you know, evidence of alteration. But they tend to be very high profile; those are the ones that show up on Blowout forums... Scammers have businesses to run too, so they normally focus on higher value cards." (30 mins in)
Actually, the ones that show up on Blowout forums are the ones PSA DID NOT FAIL. If 10% of submitted cards are altered and you are only catching less than 10% of them, that's pretty bad. In the modern chrome field, how many surface scratches are buffed out with car wax? How many wiped down autographs do they catch? How many swapped patches?
Does PSA ever reject modern cards for non-trimming/minsize reasons?

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by mfw13

What makes you think that PSA graders have been around cards a long time?

It's a soul-sucking minimum wage job...and PSA is desperately hiring tons of new graders to keep up with demand (most of whom are highly likely be inexperienced).

The idea that PSA graders are highly trained experts is laughable....I'm sure that there are a few in the ranks, but I'm guessing that 70-80% of PSA graders are have been doing the job for less than a year, and that a significant portion of new hires have zero experience in the card industry.

For someone who thinks it take 3 mins to grade a card I cannot imagine anything I write would mean anything.

For sake of argument let's say you are right--that the grading room is full of new hires with no experience and only a few there are experts. If that is what PSA decided to do then why have they not hired 300 graders to take care of the 10 to 20 million cards in the backlogged orders? Why are they stuck at 50 graders?

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Nat Turner: "Way less than 1% of cards are failed for that reason, you know, evidence of alteration. But they tend to be very high profile; those are the ones that show up on Blowout forums... Scammers have businesses to run too, so they normally focus on higher value cards." (30 mins in)
Actually, the ones that show up on Blowout forums are the ones PSA DID NOT FAIL. If 10% of submitted cards are altered and you are only catching less than 10% of them, that's pretty bad. In the modern chrome field, how many surface scratches are buffed out with car wax? How many wiped down autographs do they catch? How many swapped patches?
Does PSA ever reject modern cards for non-trimming/minsize reasons?

High profile cards??? There's a thread on here with mostly commons!

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Nat Turner: "Way less than 1% of cards are failed for that reason, you know, evidence of alteration. But they tend to be very high profile; those are the ones that show up on Blowout forums... Scammers have businesses to run too, so they normally focus on higher value cards." (30 mins in)
Actually, the ones that show up on Blowout forums are the ones PSA DID NOT FAIL. If 10% of submitted cards are altered and you are only catching less than 10% of them, that's pretty bad. In the modern chrome field, how many surface scratches are buffed out with car wax? How many wiped down autographs do they catch? How many swapped patches?
Does PSA ever reject modern cards for non-trimming/minsize reasons?

I could not listen through the whole interview but skipped around. Way too many instances of complete and utter BS from Nat. Besides the hobby does not need Nat or anyone else from PSA giving interviews. Their actions (and even more their inaction) speak for them.

[mjohnatgt]

I like how he seems to feel empathy for the trimmers in that quote. "Scammers have businesses to run too..." Their business is proving your business incompetent, Nat.
Yes, because of the Set Registry competitions, $1 commons can be $1,000 with the mythical PSA 10. So if he thinks the issue is just stars and HOF RCs, he's fooling himself or just outright lying.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

I could not listen through the whole interview but skipped around. Way too many instances of complete and utter BS from Nat. Besides the hobby does not need Nat or anyone else from PSA giving interviews. Their actions (and even more their inaction) speak for them.

Notice LOL he's touting the statistic for what they ACTUALLY reject, not what they SHOULD reject. Meaningless. Either not a very intelligent point, or a slick one.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

I like how he seems to feel empathy for the trimmers in that quote. "Scammers have businesses to run too..." Their business is proving your business incompetent, Nat.
Yes, because of the Set Registry competitions, $1 commons can be $1,000 with the mythical PSA 10. So if he thinks the issue is just stars and HOF RCs, he's fooling himself or just outright lying.

The thinking that trimmers only hit up big ticket cards is so 2010ish if not earlier. Please.

[cking]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

So if he thinks the issue is just stars and HOF RCs, he's fooling himself or just outright lying.

I will go with lying

He seems to be fitting right in at PSA

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

I do not expect Peter to listen but I urge anyone to give 4 mins of their time to listen at this point https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Cbq8W98MY&t=2699s.

That was an interesting portion and good listen, especially the discussion of the grade guarantee.

I'm thinking this PSA 9, PWCC stickered Gary Moser card might be the card that Nat referenced, as it's now identified as authentic altered.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1454811

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

I like how he seems to feel empathy for the trimmers in that quote. "Scammers have businesses to run too..." Their business is proving your business incompetent, Nat.
Yes, because of the Set Registry competitions, $1 commons can be $1,000 with the mythical PSA 10. So if he thinks the issue is just stars and HOF RCs, he's fooling himself or just outright lying.

He is definitely not fooling himself and dunno the guy but he seemed uncomfortable, was touching his face a lot, unable to sit still and gesticulating nonstop. Maybe he was drinking Red Bull?

My favs from him though were at 45:28 "I actually love that there are these armchair detectives out there that so that (referring to before and after photo comparison). It makes us better.

And at 47:50 "I will say too. We have a buy back policy so if the card…if we…if we slab a card and 10 years later it turns out we shouldn’t have…umm…or it was trimmed or whatever, ya know, and we can and we re-review and re-examine it and sure enough, ya know, we can tell that yeah we missed it. Umm…sometimes we can’t tell by the way even if the…the, ya know, forums identify it. Like…we… ya know true as, true as day, I mean, we can’t tell and those are hard exceptions. Again fraud by definition is hard to detect."

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

He is definitely not fooling himself and dunno the guy but he seemed uncomfortable, was touching his face a lot, unable to sit still and gesticulating nonstop. Maybe he was drinking Red Bull?

My favs from him though were at 45:28 "I actually love that there are these armchair detectives out there that so that (referring to before and after photo comparison). It makes us better.

And at 47:50 "I will say too. We have a buy back policy so if the card…if we…if we slab a card and 10 years later it turns out we shouldn’t have…umm…or it was trimmed or whatever, ya know, and we can and we re-review and re-examine it and sure enough, ya know, we can tell that yeah we missed it. Umm…sometimes we can’t tell by the way even if the…the, ya know, forums identify it. Like…we… ya know true as, true as day, I mean, we can’t tell and those are hard exceptions. Again fraud by definition is hard to detect."

Uh wut?

[pip]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

He is definitely not fooling himself and dunno the guy but he seemed uncomfortable, was touching his face a lot, unable to sit still and gesticulating nonstop. Maybe he was drinking Red Bull?

My favs from him though were at 45:28 "I actually love that there are these armchair detectives out there that so that (referring to before and after photo comparison). It makes us better.

And at 47:50 "I will say too. We have a buy back policy so if the card…if we…if we slab a card and 10 years later it turns out we shouldn’t have…umm…or it was trimmed or whatever, ya know, and we can and we re-review and re-examine it and sure enough, ya know, we can tell that yeah we missed it. Umm…sometimes we can’t tell by the way even if the…the, ya know, forums identify it. Like…we… ya know true as, true as day, I mean, we can’t tell and those are hard exceptions. Again fraud by definition is hard to detect."

Any part of that, including the whole thing, would make a good sig line. I am tempted.

[pip]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

He is definitely not fooling himself and dunno the guy but he seemed uncomfortable, was touching his face a lot, unable to sit still and gesticulating nonstop. Maybe he was drinking Red Bull?

My favs from him though were at 45:28 "I actually love that there are these armchair detectives out there that so that (referring to before and after photo comparison). It makes us better.

And at 47:50 "I will say too. We have a buy back policy so if the card…if we…if we slab a card and 10 years later it turns out we shouldn’t have…umm…or it was trimmed or whatever, ya know, and we can and we re-review and re-examine it and sure enough, ya know, we can tell that yeah we missed it. Umm…sometimes we can’t tell by the way even if the…the, ya know, forums identify it. Like…we… ya know true as, true as day, I mean, we can’t tell and those are hard exceptions. Again fraud by definition is hard to detect."

Well, now it makes total sense why PSA charges more to grade more expensive cards. This statement from Nat makes it all clear.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by pip

Well, now it makes total sense why PSA charges more to grade more expensive cards. This statement from Nat makes it all clear.

Yeah, sure..they should be sitting on a billion dollars in “insurance” money then.

[pspa123]

In my fantasies I have the opportunity to cross examine statements like this.