1997 Jordan PMG Green 1/10 up on eBay...

[jj2]

Originally Posted by the27guy

Just reread this thread. Wow. Pages 4-9 have some really good questions about forgeries and about the legitimacy of this card. I'd suggest everyone take a look at those pages.

But, since you're here MJGREENPMG1100, I have a few questions.
Did you pull this card? Was anyone watching you or do you have video? Why, as someone who likely spent hundreds of dollars on a 20 year old box did you initially list it so unprofessionally? What I mean is, one would think that someone who is spending big bucks on these boxes should know what he's pulled when he pulls it. The auction when it was first listed looked like a first time lister. Can you tell us the details of pulling the card? I would love to hear everything about the story. Where you were. Who you were with. What you felt like when you saw the green in the stack. Did the cards stick? Everything.

The only reason I ask is that so so many of the 90s inserts have been authenticated as real by Beckett and Psa and then later found to be fake. It's an amazing story, truly incredible really, that this card of all cards was pulled nearly 20 years after it was inserted into a pack. But given the timing of it, and the large number of fakes being graded as real, I would love to hear from as many parties as possible evidence that this card is what it is claimed to be.

Thanks for understanding my pessimistic attitude. Nothing personal. Just that I love this hobby. I appreciate the importance of the rare 90s stuff and if in a couple years another 1/100 Jordan surfaces, the validity of ALL of the single greatest 90s set will be in question. And frankly the possibility of that pisses me off.

If you've answered these questions previously, I apologize. Please direct me to where I can get the answers.

If the card is fake I would ask that you come forward and acknowledge it. For two reasons. 1) you will tarnish our hobby terribly if it is fake. Not just 90s inserts but everything will be brought into question.

And

2) of it is later found to be fake and you've sold this for, say, $100k, you could absolutely go to jail. Don't sacrifice your life for money. Not worth it.

No-one has ever shown there to be any even remotely decent fakes of this particular card. Upper Deck couldn't even make copies to the same standard in their Fleer Retro releases.

[exoticprince]

Personally I think it's annoying the amount of hate the dude who pulled it is getting. I think a lot of people are just pi$$ed that they weren't the ones who pulled it after it was available all of these years. He's had the card authenticated and has been open about everything. He's pulled am the card of a lifetime and has every right to advertise it and hype it up. Any smart businessman would advertise aggressively before a big sale especially with something this sought after. People need to chill, congratulate the dude, and let the upcoming auction speak for itself. Then everyone's questions will get answered.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by jj2

No-one has ever shown there to be any even remotely decent fakes of this particular card. Upper Deck couldn't even make copies to the same standard in their Fleer Retro releases.

I would have never believed that skybox rubies and the other sets that have been faked would have been authenticated by Beckett and PSA..... But they have. Again, see pages 4-9 of this thread. Rubies, BMOC, raves, all faked and thn authenticated. Psa and Bgs totally duped!

But again, who buys a $300 box with maybe a 1:50-ish chance of getting a green, then gets it but lists it like someone who has no idea what he has??? How does that happen?

I want to believe it's real. I don't though. I'd love to hear the whole story-- from beginning to end of how this card came to be. But there is no story from what I can see. Do any reputable members know this guy? Can anyone vouch for him? I would love to receice assurance that this is real. The best case that I have that it's real is that it 1) has a surface that would be extremely difficult to replicate and 2) it is authenticated by a company that has been duped before.

[jj2]

Originally Posted by the27guy

I would have never believed that skybox rubies and the other sets that have been faked would have been authenticated by Beckett and PSA..... But they have. Again, see pages 4-9 of this thread. Rubies, BMOC, raves, all faked and thn authenticated. Psa and Bgs totally duped!

But again, who buys a $300 box with maybe a 1:50-ish chance of getting a green, then gets it but lists it like someone who has no idea what he has??? How does that happen?

I want to believe it's real. I don't though. I'd love to hear the whole story-- from beginning to end of how this card came to be. But there is no story from what I can see. Do any reputable members know this guy? Can anyone vouch for him? I would love to receice assurance that this is real. The best case that I have that it's real is that it 1) has a surface that would be extremely difficult to replicate and 2) it is authenticated by a company that has been duped before.

Well I guess you're one less potential buyer then. It's ok to be skeptical, but I think you have to make way to many assumptions and ignore far too much of the obvious to think this is fake.

Just because it's hard for us to believe it happened doesn't mean it didn't. Unbelievable things happen every day.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by jj2

Well I guess you're one less potential buyer then. It's ok to be skeptical, but I think you have to make way to many assumptions and ignore far too much of the obvious to think this is fake.

Just because it's hard for us to believe it happened doesn't mean it didn't. Unbelievable things happen every day.

You're right. Absolutely right. And it really might be true. But the timing is just so suspect to me. Most of the best 90s inserts start being successfully faked and then the single best one gets pulled? Maybe it happened. I just want to hear the whole story.

[tristan20]

Originally Posted by jj2

Well I guess you're one less potential buyer then. It's ok to be skeptical, but I think you have to make way to many assumptions and ignore far too much of the obvious to think this is fake.

Just because it's hard for us to believe it happened doesn't mean it didn't. Unbelievable things happen every day.

Problem is this is not your typical card.
This is the HOLY GRAIL to most in the hobby.
So questions HAVE TO BE ANSWERED.

If the seller can't answer simple questions etc. then the credibility will be lost. No one is asking him for the impossible.

We are here to protect collectors, sometimes from themselves. Its better to be skeptical than naive, especially considering that so many "1/1 90s Rare cards" have been popping up.

I personally stay FAR FAR away from inserts, as printing technology gets better every day, it gets more and more difficult to tell real from fake.

But in favor of the seller, if no one comes forward with another 001/100 PMG Jordan. Chances are this is real, once in a GENERATION type pull.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by tristan20

Problem is this is not your typical card.
This is the HOLY GRAIL to most in the hobby.
So questions HAVE TO BE ANSWERED.

If the seller can't answer simple questions etc. then the credibility will be lost. No one is asking him for the impossible.

We are here to protect collectors, sometimes from themselves. Its better to be skeptical than naive, especially considering that so many "1/1 90s Rare cards" have been popping up.

I personally stay FAR FAR away from inserts, as printing technology gets better every day, it gets more and more difficult to tell real from fake.

Hear hear. Exactly.

And again.... Bottom line. Why would someone go out and drop 300+ on a box like this and then pull the best possible card and then list it like a flippin 4th grader? I don't get that.

Put yourself in the same situation.

This is not just a great card. This is THE card. And "authenticated by PSA" just isn't good enough any more.... And it hasn't been good enough since we found out the errors mentioned throughout this thread.

If I was the owner I would start a new thread here and answer every single question the community has to ask. Every one. Leave no doubt in our minds. Because whether it's real or not, really smart people aren't so sure.

[Hegotgame15]

All these experts on fake 90's inserts....lol

The card is real.

If you have ever had a PMG (red) in hand you'd know just how detailed the card really is...

To fake a PMG, you'll need a PMG to make it....think about that....

Now, the other fakes ALL OF THE FAKES, don't have the same detail as the original cards they copied, BMOC, A Cut above, Platinum, Raves, Rubies...ALL those cards put NEXT to an original are ALL missing the minute details of each card...

TEXTURE. The Texture on each fake is not the same as the original.

The reason most of the fakes got graded was simple....
They never got looked at like they were FAKE, they looked REAL, so no grader was looking at them the right way in terms of the minute details and comparing them to previous graded versions (old graded cards)...

Why would they?
They looked real!


Now that the market has fake cards and people are aware, most graders now look at cards in a different way, they look for the detail, hence the fakes being graded has stalled...(not stopped completely)

Do people REALLY think PSA slabbed that card without doing everything possible to find out it's actually authentic especially with all the fakes on the market right now...?

I for one, don't believe the story of him pulling it( it could be true ), nor do I like the way it was originally listed, but that doesn't change the fact the card is real...


As for fake offers, LOL people always like to believe they know everybody in the hobby and no way someone could have offered whatever amount.....Don't need Mr SMH here anymore...

[GC1980]

I understand the skeptics and I might not be 100% clear on this fact, but didn't this guy but the box from BBCE? If so, seems like an easy thing to trace back making for some pretty decent provinence.

BBCE has a fantastic reputation and looks to be standing by this auction and staking their name to it. Couple that with the fact that's should this card be found to be a fake down the road, PSA will stand by their professional assessment and reimburse the buyer since it is in their holder. PSA has its issues but they do back their product.

Seems pretty safe to me.

[the27guy]

Hegotgame, I've owned a green and probably 10 reds. Like Tristan said,if it could be made 20 years ago, it could be made today. Texture does not make it impossible.

It could also be from a later Back door uncut sheet.

[minnesotachill]

The boxes that the card was supposedly pulled from all came from a seller in Michigan.

He had 3-4 boxes. Listed his first one for $300. A fellow MN collector bought it and flipped it. I was told he got $1000 for it on Ebay. Before that listing ended, I asked the seller from Michigan if he had more available and he said he had a few more but would need $800 each for them. The PMGreen guy purchased the rest of those.

[MJGREENPMG1100]

Yup. I paid $800 each for 4 boxes and the other seller had a buy it now or best offer of $1000. First box was won through auction at $800 and the rest throug PayPal. Been looking for these boxes for 4 years and finally found them late November 2014. Lucky me!

[Hegotgame15]

Originally Posted by the27guy

Hegotgame, I've owned a green and probably 10 reds. Like Tristan said,if it could be made 20 years ago, it could be made today. Texture does not make it impossible.

It could also be from a later Back door uncut sheet.

Make up your mind on which fake you want it to be...

A Taiwanese fake or a sheet cut?

Sheet cut, I'm with you, it's possible...

Here's the point you and Tristan seem to miss...

Yeah you can copy something if you follow the same exact process and materials in which something was made, but trying to reverse engineer a card backwards is far more challenging...

This card was looked at by likely "multiple" graders (I don't know that as fact I'm just guessing) and it was looked at under magnification...like all cards graded by PSA-BGS.

Sure you can make fakes of just about anything that look great to the naked eye, but as soon as it goes under the microscope it all changes...

All the details now have to match under magnification, now if you think that's easy and anyone could do it...Well you have never looked under a microscope or good magnification at details of a card....

Think about this... the simple old MJ Fleer Rookie...

The # 57 Fleer rookie should be easy to remake exactly like the original..Right?
Yet it's never been done (of course someone will jump in now and say it has and there are heaps in slabs PSA-BGS)...lol

There's plenty that look good to the naked eye, but as soon as a grader see's it under magnification they never get slabbed....

Now think about the detail under magnification that would be needed to pull off a fake PMG..

The other 5 fakes we know about are night and day to the naked eye next to an original...But it takes the original to next to them to spot the issues...

[blastman]

This card will get bought and never be seen again.

Much like the rest of the awesome cards most people only hear stories about.

[NYFAN2014]

Originally Posted by blastman

This card will get bought and never be seen again.

Much like the rest of the awesome cards most people only hear stories about.

Probably someone overseas in Asia that will put away the card forever.

[minnesotachill]

Maybe the card will be purchased by Malone-32, the guy who is pumping out hundreds of Counterfeit 90's inserts.

But in reality, the only person I see out there who might buy this is Nat.

I just don't see many people who would put that kind of money into a card that could be potential faked sometime down the road.

I know people who have some big name PMG Greens right now and I know they are sweating bullets right about now because anytime now there could be fakes popping up on Ebay, which would send the prices down, down down.

[drsma1]

Originally Posted by minnesotachill

Maybe the card will be purchased by Malone-32, the guy who is pumping out hundreds of Counterfeit 90's inserts.

But in reality, the only person I see out there who might buy this is Nat.

I just don't see many people who would put that kind of money into a card that could be potential faked sometime down the road.

I know people who have some big name PMG Greens right now and I know they are sweating bullets right about now because anytime now there could be fakes popping up on Ebay, which would send the prices down, down down.

You mean y2k-one...conveniently changed his ebay ID a few days ago!

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by MJGREENPMG1100

Yup. I paid $800 each for 4 boxes and the other seller had a buy it now or best offer of $1000. First box was won through auction at $800 and the rest throug PayPal. Been looking for these boxes for 4 years and finally found them late November 2014. Lucky me!

This makes me feel better as I didn't pull the trigger on the basketball boxes BBCE had listed awhile back.

[MJGREENPMG1100]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

This makes me feel better as I didn't pull the trigger on the basketball boxes BBCE had listed awhile back.

I ended up buying a box or 2 of Skybox Metal FromBBCE. IT WAS THE 1998 boxes not 97'. Pulled a Ray Allen PMG, all cards stuck together. It was a disaster. Also the Skybox Thunder,all cards stuck together. Pulled a nice Pippen Noyz Boyz in the end.

[WaiverWire]

For the green MJ PMG.....Can you tell us the details of pulling the card? Where you were? Who you were with? What you felt like when you saw the green in the stack? Did the cards stick? Why did you choose to authenticate with PSA instead of BGS? What do you plan on doing with the money after you sell the card?

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by WaiverWire

For the green MJ PMG.....Can you tell us the details of pulling the card? Where you were? Who you were with? What you felt like when you saw the green in the stack? Did the cards stick? Why did you choose to authenticate with PSA instead of BGS? What do you plan on doing with the money after you sell the card?

I've asked these questuons multiple times. no answers.

I am staying far far away from 90s inserts. I just don't believe in the end we will know which are real and which are from the fleer bankruptcy and later numbered and which are complete forgeries. I do think it's an interesting coincidence that the other Greens on ebay are up at the same time as the mj 1/100.

They faked the super raves until everyone (including Beckett and Psa) caught on. They faked the rubies till everyone caught on. Imo, it's only a matter of time.

[gomiamigo]

I have no idea about this particular card, but I think it's funny some people don't believe you could still pull a massive hit out of an old box.

[MJGREENPMG1100]

I was home when I busted open the last 2 boxes. All 5 boxes had no cards sticking. When I pulled the PMG I all of a sudden got a little light headed lol I went to my garage and smoked a cigg and thanked God so many times. Tears of joy for this 1 in a million pull. Steve Hart and the gang from BBCE wanted to see this card in person after calling them and telling them about it. They told me that some of the guys on hear are screaming FAKE (lol) so they gave me the idea of getting it authenticated through PSA and that's the other reason i took down the listing that Saturday. I had to retract lots of bids that day too. What am i going to do with the $$$?? Make more but outside the card world.

[hairyharold]

so you counterfeit money?!!!? jk lol congrats man, stupidly awesome pull that will fetch a stupid sum for sure

Originally Posted by MJGREENPMG1100

I was home when I busted open the last 2 boxes. All 5 boxes had no cards sticking. When I pulled the PMG I all of a sudden got a little light headed lol I went to my garage and smoked a cigg and thanked God so many times. Tears of joy for this 1 in a million pull. Steve Hart and the gang from BBCE wanted to see this card in person after calling them and telling them about it. They told me that some of the guys on hear are screaming FAKE (lol) so they gave me the idea of getting it authenticated through PSA and that's the other reason i took down the listing that Saturday. I had to retract lots of bids that day too. What am i going to do with the $$$?? Make more but outside the card world.

[jbrandonw]

Originally Posted by MJGREENPMG1100

I was home when I busted open the last 2 boxes. All 5 boxes had no cards sticking. When I pulled the PMG I all of a sudden got a little light headed lol I went to my garage and smoked a cigg and thanked God so many times. Tears of joy for this 1 in a million pull. Steve Hart and the gang from BBCE wanted to see this card in person after calling them and telling them about it. They told me that some of the guys on hear are screaming FAKE (lol) so they gave me the idea of getting it authenticated through PSA and that's the other reason i took down the listing that Saturday. I had to retract lots of bids that day too. What am i going to do with the $$$?? Make more but outside the card world.

Congrats man. I know alot of people are skeptical, and rightly so, but I think you've done about all you can do to convince them of its authenticity.