1997 Jordan PMG Green 1/10 up on eBay...

[bkcardcollector]

counterfeiting goes back a lot longer than hockey cards. It is part of nearly anything that is valuable. Jewels, currency, stamps, paintings to name a few. It is a constant battle between the counterfeiters and the authenticators. As was touched on by another member it basically comes down to the fact that if it is such a good counterfeit that nobody can tell the difference then it is for all intents and purposes the same as an authentic copy. This is almost never, in fact maybe never the case for reasons stated above. Sometimes (supernotes) it is very very hard to tell but when studied close enough by an expert there is a difference.

Some people actually collect counterfeits. They are rampant in stamp collecting and I have many myself. Difference is I didn't pay thousands of dollars for them. I knew they were likely counterfeit when buying and they are simply place holders and if ever sold they would be assumed to be counterfeit since the are not authenticated. I would also advertise them as such but that is besides the point. It is very unfortunate to have such irresponsible authenticators as beckett. A collectable that is authenticated should 99.9% likely authentic. One look at becketts magazine and website should tell collectors what a sham beckett is and I really don't know why anyone gives them money to tell them their cards are real. Send ME $10 and your cards and I will look at them for 10minutes and tell you they are real if you want. Ill even throw it in a fancy case with a piece of paper if you want. Remember Beckett is not a person and really you have no idea who authenticated your card if it is slabbed by either company.

The card collecting community should look at how stamp collectors (especially german) authenticate stamps. They have been doing it for what 70 years longer than BGS and PSA. The most obvious problem is that cards are graded under the cloak of companies instead of individuals.

So what should we do?
Stop buying high end from unknown dealers and expecting them to be real.
Stop giving beckett (and PSA to a lesser extent) your money!!!! As long as people keep sending them money they will keep grading cards as fast as they can.


The way I approach stamps is that anything worth over $20 (and not signed by a legitimate authenticator) is a fake until scrutinized against a confirmed authentic copy.

For cards if I am buying anything worth counterfeiting ($200+) I
1.Make sure the dealer is reputable
2.Ask for second opinions if there is any doubt

Unfortunately that is about all we can do right now with these irresponsible authenticators who are just after our money and will never stand behind their claims.

[AbraCalabro]

Originally Posted by paul06901

If these were re-created, why can't the PMG green be re-created as well?

/thread


OUCH.

I had forgotten about those until I saw this pic. Wow.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by bkcardcollector

counterfeiting goes back a lot longer than hockey cards. It is part of nearly anything that is valuable. Jewels, currency, stamps, paintings to name a few. It is a constant battle between the counterfeiters and the authenticators. As was touched on by another member it basically comes down to the fact that if it is such a good counterfeit that nobody can tell the difference then it is for all intents and purposes the same as an authentic copy. This is almost never, in fact maybe never the case for reasons stated above. Sometimes (supernotes) it is very very hard to tell but when studied close enough by an expert there is a difference.

Some people actually collect counterfeits. They are rampant in stamp collecting and I have many myself. Difference is I didn't pay thousands of dollars for them. I knew they were likely counterfeit when buying and they are simply place holders and if ever sold they would be assumed to be counterfeit since the are not authenticated. I would also advertise them as such but that is besides the point. It is very unfortunate to have such irresponsible authenticators as beckett. A collectable that is authenticated should 99.9% likely authentic. One look at becketts magazine and website should tell collectors what a sham beckett is and I really don't know why anyone gives them money to tell them their cards are real. Send ME $10 and your cards and I will look at them for 10minutes and tell you they are real if you want. Ill even throw it in a fancy case with a piece of paper if you want. Remember Beckett is not a person and really you have no idea who authenticated your card if it is slabbed by either company.

The card collecting community should look at how stamp collectors (especially german) authenticate stamps. They have been doing it for what 70 years longer than BGS and PSA. The most obvious problem is that cards are graded under the cloak of companies instead of individuals.

So what should we do?
Stop buying high end from unknown dealers and expecting them to be real.
Stop giving beckett (and PSA to a lesser extent) your money!!!! As long as people keep sending them money they will keep grading cards as fast as they can.


The way I approach stamps is that anything worth over $20 (and not signed by a legitimate authenticator) is a fake until scrutinized against a confirmed authentic copy.

For cards if I am buying anything worth counterfeiting ($200+) I
1.Make sure the dealer is reputable
2.Ask for second opinions if there is any doubt

Unfortunately that is about all we can do right now with these irresponsible authenticators who are just after our money and will never stand behind their claims.

Amen. Counterfeiting has been around for decades and will continue to be. This is nothing new...it's just that now the counterfeiters are so brazen and dumb enough to post and brag about their accomplishments.

Just because there's probably 10 fake 86 jordan rookies for every real one, doesn't mean the authentic ones are completely worthless. Far from it. It just means people need to wise up and open their eyes to what's out there.

As with anything collectible (be it art, jewelry, shoes, electronics, etc) it is the responsibility of the buyer to do their due dilligence to ensure they're getting what they're paying for.

Unfortunately for many of these particular inserts, that means either avoiding them altogether if you're that paranoid, or simply singling your search down to cards slabbed with the old BGS labels (over a half decade ago). It's a big price to pay, but the show must go on, and counterfeiters will never completely go away.

Trust me. The U.S. has been trying to shut down Chinese factories for decades now.

[Hegotgame15]

Originally Posted by SportsItUpCards

Unless the con artists are totally brain dead, all they would need to do is send one or two fake cards along with other random cards, and bam.... they blend in.

Truth is, BGS(Beckett) HAS graded fake cards, and they continue to. Nothing will change. They are not pros at every single card brought to them. Especially if it's a football, or baseball card guy grading the "silly" basketball cards. They should make basketball knowledgeable do basketball cards, and baseball to baseball, and so on. But even then, they're always going to have their strengths in grading, such as vintage, or current day cards... 90's inserts specialist? lol

People will continue to be fooled into buying fake 90's cards, especially the raw ones. As well as fake "graded" ones. Nothing to do about it. If anyone is upset about this, rise up and keep exposing people involved, instead of taking their sides simply because you collect the same stuff they're destroying and hyping. Makes absolutely no sense. If anything, you should be totally against it. Why would you want to pay more for your cards? You think by your cards falsely being worth "this record price" it makes you more special? No... it just makes you dumb, and broke! You shouldn't have to pay more for cards you truly enjoy. Once you've crossed the line of wanting your cards to falsely be worth more just to flex your muscles, then you've entered the road of no return... You're not a collector anymore, you're just someone at that point that wants something to feel special about, and cards unfortunately is what you chose to feel special with. Cards are a fun hobby of the sport you love, period.

Stand up! Don't fool yourself, and stand up to the scum of this hobby, you all know who they are! The morons making fake price guide websites to record these "record high" prices, the morons posting thread after thread with the bogus sales, and pumping these cards like they're the greatest things ever. Meanwhile before 2007(pre shilling), no one cared about them, and didn't bother because there was no potential money to be made. All the "collectors" who buy their dream cards and then pump them and sell them, while pretending they only have one, while they actually have 7 or 8 of them, and then create a fake sale on ebay for $18,250.00!!!!!!!!! OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH....... and yes, it's legit! Smh, Then create threads everywhere, and contact beckett to record the bogus prices.

So now you have old collectors paying the price, and new bang wagon collectors getting into it because they think it's the cool thing to do... that they're fit in if they buy these shinny cards. So they either fall for the hype, or because they happen out of freak accident to have one or two of these cards, they protect the scam at all costs. It's a real shame.

What have YOU done to fix the issue, apart from labelling all 90's collectors the same.

Jordan BMOC & BMOC Z peat FAKES being GRADED????

I bought the fakes and bought real ones to find out if I could spot the difference, I made a thread about it with INFORMATION not just a "Mr SMH theory" the day I posted it, Beckett STOPPED grading the fakes!

[SportsItUpCards]

Originally Posted by Hegotgame15

What have YOU done to fix the issue, apart from labelling all 90's collectors the same.

Jordan BMOC & BMOC Z peat FAKES being GRADED????

I bought the fakes and bought real ones to find out if I could spot the difference, I made a thread about it with INFORMATION not just a "Mr SMH theory" the day I posted it, Beckett STOPPED grading the fakes!

Lol... Smh

My delusional crazy theories is what exposed the fraudsters, and put an end to the madness!

Unfortunately in the process they were able to absolutely destroy the 90's inserts, instead of just being caught in the act, they decided to make fakes also, and totally discredit all inserts as a whole. Who will ever be confident buying these cards?

[slobbythegreat]

Originally Posted by dengbang

There is an instance where the card will appear dark and not shiny. I noticed this when I used a scanner to scan my pmg's. It's almost as if they were "overexposed". I am not sure of the technical term, but I assume there was too much light and the scanning sensors self corrected that "overexposure". Same thing with refractors, I have a real tough time capturing the refractor effect on certain cards. I've also noticed other sellers with their PMG's in BGS/PSA cases take photos/scans and it came out dark as well with no shine.

Yeah mate I've had the same but with cameras and phones they catch any light around... I'm still saying fake until more pics surface... I hope it's real but judging off the pic I don't think it is

[GC1980]

Lot's of interesting posts on this.

To stay on topic of this cards authenticity...While I would love to see this be the real deal, something just seems off. If this person truly pack pulled this from a $300+ nearly 20 year old box, they would obviously be a rather knowledgeable collector and know they were after the MJ PMG (or any PMG). I would think they would be more inclined to get this graded themselves ASAP. This eliminatines any speculation on this cards authenticity and adds tremendous value to the potential sale.

To throw it on ebay raw, with a SHITTY pic, no high rez scans?

I open a few 90's boxes a year. If I pulled this MONSTER, I would have it off to PSA/BGS the next day. I'd at least have multiple scans from every angle imaginable if I was hoping to get someone to drop 50k.

Now off topic to the shilling/counterfeiting... this Gio cat may sound crazy sometimes and rub folks the wrong way but the truth is really not all that far off from his theories. He may overstate the issues a bit but these cards were certainly manipulated. I don't think its the sole reason MJ 90's inserts got hot or rose in value but it does account for some of the insane prices. Fake sales are a major issue across all subsets of our hobby and plague not only ebay but also some of the major auction houses.

Counterfeiting is something that will always follow high dollar collectibles. The people faking these things know collectors are a passionate breed and will often buy with their hearts and not their brains. Printing technology is insane. I work in the architectural/design and engineering business and have businesses in Japan I partner with that utilize some of the most advanced printing technology around. I can't imagine faking a PMG is too terribly difficult.

Here's to hoping this is real. It would make for an incredible story and hopefully a big time REAL sale. Would be good for the hobby IMO.

[nissandriver77]

According to Mike "M100" it is real , that should put everyone's mind at ease now.

HobbyKings.com :: View topic - Nice green card

[blastman]

Originally Posted by nissandriver77

According to Mike "M1000" it is real , that should put everyone's mind at ease now.

HobbyKings.com :: View topic - Nice green card

lol

https://huperoyalty.wordpress.com/20...ortsitupcards/

[AbraCalabro]

lol why is there a mention of an unsold box that it supposedly came out of, I think that barring a video taped break no one is really going to believe it's real - way too much risk. As if the guy having a box of that product recently for sale is supposed to put anyone's mind at ease - that proves absolutely nothing.

Also, that chipping could easily have been done deliberately. Even if the card is in fact real, some one has to be willing to take a monstrous risk in buying it, granted the high quality fakes that have come forth.

Would be cool if it was real, but fakes plaguing the hobby have caused excitement to turn into doubt.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by AbraCalabro

lol why is there a mention of an unsold box that it supposedly came out of, I think that barring a video taped break no one is really going to believe it's real - way too much risk. As if the guy having a box of that product recently for sale is supposed to put anyone's mind at ease - that proves absolutely nothing.

Also, that chipping could easily have been done deliberately. Even if the card is in fact real, some one has to be willing to take a monstrous risk in buying it, granted the high quality fakes that have come forth.

Would be cool if it was real, but fakes plaguing the hobby have caused excitement to turn into doubt.

Very true on every point. Chipping should not be something that eases a buyers concerns. I have seen MANY high end cards on the vintage side faked and given an "aged" appearance.

[Cubs_rock21]

Originally Posted by AbraCalabro

lol why is there a mention of an unsold box that it supposedly came out of, I think that barring a video taped break no one is really going to believe it's real - way too much risk. As if the guy having a box of that product recently for sale is supposed to put anyone's mind at ease - that proves absolutely nothing.

Also, that chipping could easily have been done deliberately. Even if the card is in fact real, some one has to be willing to take a monstrous risk in buying it, granted the high quality fakes that have come forth.

Would be cool if it was real, but fakes plaguing the hobby have caused excitement to turn into doubt.

.......................................

[bmf]

Originally Posted by thenwhatjk

What would we do without this guy

we would sit back and enjoy the sensation of neuronal regeneration

[bmf]

Originally Posted by nissandriver77

According to Mike "M100" it is real , that should put everyone's mind at ease now.

HobbyKings.com :: View topic - Nice green card

lol nissan! question for you: is m100/mike the same person as daveduffield? i just wasted a bunch of my life reading several of their threads. they only participate in the same threads it appears. their posts are very similar in terms of content and also style. and they clearly have the same AGENDA. just curious

[CastleBeachCards]

I think it's odd.
I had a conversation via Ebay with seller about how ridiculous he was being stating how you will probably get 3 or 4 PMGs per box and also selling for $2,500 per box.
(I bought a box of this last year for $300)
Then he e-mails me, calls me a "tard" and the next day e-mails me again to say "
See what I pulled out of the box?"
Just WAY too weird and coincidental for me

[hairyangryfella]

Originally Posted by Kenfancypants

I think it's odd.
I had a conversation via Ebay with seller about how ridiculous he was being stating how you will probably get 3 or 4 PMGs per box and also selling for $2,500 per box.
(I bought a box of this last year for $300)
Then he e-mails me, calls me a "tard" and the next day e-mails me again to say "
See what I pulled out of the box?"
Just WAY too weird and coincidental for me

Seems like 'windycitysportscards kind of behaviour' - completely arrogant and aggressive because he thinks he's too good for others.
*I am in no way saying this is that person, just the ATTITUDE is becoming all too typical.

I agree his story seems completely bogus.

The card may very well be real. And if it is, why make up such a story?

[duron]

Originally Posted by Kenfancypants

I think it's odd.
I had a conversation via Ebay with seller about how ridiculous he was being stating how you will probably get 3 or 4 PMGs per box and also selling for $2,500 per box.
(I bought a box of this last year for $300)
Then he e-mails me, calls me a "tard" and the next day e-mails me again to say "
See what I pulled out of the box?"
Just WAY too weird and coincidental for me

and the plot thickens

or the guy's just a clown

[alanlam]

I have no idea if its real or not. Judging by kenfancy's conversation with him I'd lean towards fake.

I got a kick out of his feedback. He got neg'd 22 times by the same buyer.

[deekayisme]

Originally Posted by SportsItUpCards

Lol... Smh

My delusional crazy theories is what exposed the fraudsters, and put an end to the madness!

Unfortunately in the process they were able to absolutely destroy the 90's inserts, instead of just being caught in the act, they decided to make fakes also, and totally discredit all inserts as a whole. Who will ever be confident buying these cards?

I'm here trying to find out what the deal is with the PMG green and this obnoxious dude is just constantly bashing 90's MJ cards and inserts. BLAH BLAH BLAH. For me, it's literally going in one ear and out the other. There actually happen to be a handful of fans out there who still enjoys MJ cards. MAYBE

[15ncounting]

This was just pulled a couple days ago from a box at my shop. I do not collect these stuff so do not follow fakes/numbering fonts and stuff. I was there when it was pulled. The cards were sticking so it would surprise me if someone pulled a card like this and it did not have some white in front/back like this one from the sticking and age. The numbering on the one I'm showing is not consistent with the Ewing I once owned, even the last zero in 100 is not fully a circle. But again it was pulled in front of my face by a great friend. Sorry if the pic is too small.

[deekayisme]

Originally Posted by 15ncounting

This was just pulled a couple days ago from a box at my shop. I do not collect these stuff so do not follow fakes/numbering fonts and stuff. I was there when it was pulled. The cards were sticking so it would surprise me if someone pulled a card like this and it did not have some white in front/back like this one from the sticking and age. The numbering on the one I'm showing is not consistent with the Ewing I once owned, even the last zero in 100 is not fully a circle. But again it was pulled in front of my face by a great friend. Sorry if the pic is too small.

Wow an amazing pull!

[dengbang]

Originally Posted by 15ncounting

I know some folks that would spend a pretty penny for this card if it checks out. Jersey numbered PMG Green of a Bulls player, let alone the Croation Sensation himself, will go for a good amount. Is your friend planning to sell?

[duron]

Originally Posted by 15ncounting

The cards were sticking so it would surprise me if someone pulled a card like this and it did not have some white in front/back like this one from the sticking and age.

this doesn't always happen though. it's not a given.

[deekayisme]

Originally Posted by paul06901

If these were re-created, why can't the PMG green be re-created as well?

i'm relatively new on these boards but how could you tell these pics are indeed fake cards? anybody? thanks in advance

[SportsItUpCards]

If Joe says that Kukoc was pulled in front if him, then it's legit, period. Joe is the most reliable source in this hobby, so the Kukoc pull is legit.

Nice card! What a find!