MUST READ TRIMMING THREAD: COMC- HawkDynasty,cccardfactory,LORDSTANLEY2012|PWCC|ih8ca

[HarryLime]

My guess is PWCC's plan is to play the "I can't tell which cards have been altered or not. I'm just a lowly consignor, incapable of detecting the things that PSA is paid to do. Look! They keep finding more altered cards in my current auctions! Obviously I have no idea how to detect them. That's what PSA is for. I sure don't want anyone to taken for a ride and I'd never auction off an altered card, but, shucks, I can't tell the difference."

I mean, it would look pretty bad if thousands of altered cards made their way through PWCC over the course of many years and then as soon as the FBI shows up asking questions there isn't another altered card? That kind of screams "we're barking up the right tree."

So Brent has to keep auctioning off the cards he knows are dirty from people he knows are dbags. He NEEDS BODA to find them and out them. It's the old "another murder occurred while I was being questioned by police."

If someone wants to bring him an outed card? No problem. He KNOWS PSA isn't going to change their original opinion because 1. they don't want to start paying out and 2. you can't be a victim of fraud if you can't tell the difference between a good card and a bad card anyway. So Brent sends it PSA, they send it back with their blessing, and now Brent gets to auction it off and look like a hobby good guy while cashing the check and washing his hands clean of the whole thing.

Jeff Lichtman is really effing good at his job.

Arthur

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Jeff Lichtman is really effing good at his job.

Is J.L. still representing PWCC/Brent? If so, is it fair to say J.L., from a legal stance, at this point, is assisting PWCC/Brent sell select TPG reviewed altered cards to collectors?

(question open to anyone reading of course)

[3124508 on COMC]

https://img.comc.com/i/Basketball/20...d16f&size=zoom
https://img.comc.com/i/Basketball/20...zoom&side=back
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/vault-marketplace/4719

[auburn35]

Does this originate from the OCSI group or are they at least the likely source of the alteration and grading?

[Pink Pussycat]

They trimmed a ton off that top border.

Nice encore, PSA. Newsflash.... Rulers are readily available and pretty cheap!

Nice to see nothing ever changes.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Does this originate from the OCSI group or are they at least the likely source of the alteration and grading?

Yes and yes. First sold trimmed by OCSI via COMC.

[ovrcollect]

Incredible stuff... You seriously deserve international recognition for the work you're putting in here.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by ovrcollect

Incredible stuff... You seriously deserve international recognition for the work you're putting in here.

Preferably following a verdict or two.

[signed79]

Happy to say several FB groups I'm in are FINALLY taking notice. Word is out there and people are reevaluating their collections!

[cking]

They hacked the crap out of that card. On the front of the card look above the Lakers logo it looks like the letters LET

Than looked on the trimmed version...its ET....with just a little piece of the L

[pip]

Originally Posted by cking

They hacked the crap out of that card. On the front of the card look above the Lakers logo it looks like the letters LET

Than looked on the trimmed version...its ET....with just a little piece of the L

No need to worry. As soon as PSA reviews it and reassures us that it is unaltered, it will be right back up for sale by PWCC.

[cking]

Originally Posted by pip

No need to worry. As soon as PSA reviews it and reassures us that it is unaltered, it will be right back up for sale by PWCC.

I dont see how you could dispute the L missing and one of the black dots in the upper right hand corner

Before it went to PSA its there

After it is graded by PSA it is not

[rcmb3220]

Originally Posted by cking

I dont see how you could dispute the L missing and one of the black dots in the upper right hand corner

Before it went to PSA its there

After it is graded by PSA it is not

Does it matter?

[cking]

Originally Posted by rcmb3220

Does it matter?

That is true. It is PSA.

The part that gets me the most is you could show them the missing L and the missing black dot and they would still say its not trimmed.

And the sheep will believe them and get upset with you for saying bad things about their lord and master PSA.

Even with photographic evidence the sheep will side with PSA.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by cking

I dont see how you could dispute the L missing and one of the black dots in the upper right hand corner

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=16066142

[pip]

Originally Posted by cking

I dont see how you could dispute the L missing and one of the black dots in the upper right hand corner

Before it went to PSA its there

After it is graded by PSA it is not

I was being sarcastic.

[pip]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=16066142

Exactly. The "circle of life" for trimmed cards.

[MoreToppsPlease]

As said a number of times before, a white hat card altering group could easily show how lacking PSA is in noticing these kinds of alterations.

[ken161]

Threads like these have made me decide to liquidate my graded card collection. A few cards I cracked out and put in my raw sets but the majority have been or will be sold off.

While putting together my latest pile of graded cards to ship off to COMC, I came across a 1986 Topps Patrick Roy rookie in PSA8 that I'd flagged as purchased from Hawk Dynasty. While the card had not been outed as trimmed that I'm aware of, I did not want to sell it to some poor unsuspecting soul. Instead, I decided to conduct an experiment. The results were depressing but not surprising.

I cracked the card out of the case and compared it to raw cards in my 1986 Topps Hockey set. Here's what I found:

1) The Hawk Dynasty card was short side-to-side. It didn't seem super pronounced when I measured the card with a ruler while in the PSA case, but it was very noticeable when cracked out. I placed the Roy card flat on a desk and right above or below another card from the set. I did this with 20 different cards. In each and every case the Hawk Dynasty Roy was narrower. It was tough to say exactly how much, but I'd say between 1/32 and 1/64 of an inch narrower. I even tried with another Roy card and the results were the same.

2) Next, I broke out a halogen light and loupe. I placed the Hawk Dynasty Roy card in the middle of a pile of commons and looked at the edges with a loupe. I could not discern which was the Hawk Dynasty Roy card. All cards looked to have the same Topps factory cut on their edges.

3) My conclusion: The card was trimmed but Hawk Dynasty (and likely most of their fellow card doctors) have figured out how to trim cards and replicate a vintage factory cut. Granted, I am not an expert in paper technology, but my conclusions seem pretty sound given everything we know about these card doctors.

4) Final conclusion: The card doctors are light years ahead of Joe Orlando's hapless crew of "experts." Never get cheated.

[This is]

Originally Posted by ken161

Threads like these have made me decide to liquidate my graded card collection. A few cards I cracked out and put in my raw sets but the majority have been or will be sold off.

While putting together my latest pile of graded cards to ship off to COMC, I came across a 1986 Topps Patrick Roy rookie in PSA8 that I'd flagged as purchased from Hawk Dynasty. While the card had not been outed as trimmed that I'm aware of, I did not want to sell it to some poor unsuspecting soul. Instead, I decided to conduct an experiment. The results were depressing but not surprising.

I cracked the card out of the case and compared it to raw cards in my 1986 Topps Hockey set. Here's what I found:

1) The Hawk Dynasty card was short side-to-side. It didn't seem super pronounced when I measured the card with a ruler while in the PSA case, but it was very noticeable when cracked out. I placed the Roy card flat on a desk and right above or below another card from the set. I did this with 20 different cards. In each and every case the Hawk Dynasty Roy was narrower. It was tough to say exactly how much, but I'd say between 1/32 and 1/64 of an inch narrower. I even tried with another Roy card and the results were the same.

2) Next, I broke out a halogen light and loupe. I placed the Hawk Dynasty Roy card in the middle of a pile of commons and looked at the edges with a loupe. I could not discern which was the Hawk Dynasty Roy card. All cards looked to have the same Topps factory cut on their edges.

3) My conclusion: The card was trimmed but Hawk Dynasty (and likely most of their fellow card doctors) have figured out how to trim cards and replicate a vintage factory cut. Granted, I am not an expert in paper technology, but my conclusions seem pretty sound given everything we know about these card doctors.

4) Final conclusion: The card doctors are light years ahead of Joe Orlando's hapless crew of "experts." Never get cheated.

Hawk Dynasty is still a member here. Looks like he periodicaly logs in to check Blowout but has not posted since last august--
https://www.blowoutforums.com/search...rchid=39517940

He should be banned for being a scammer just like Evan Mathis was banned.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by pip

No need to worry. As soon as PSA reviews it and reassures us that it is unaltered, it will be right back up for sale by PWCC.

With Joe Orlando grinning ear to ear.

Originally Posted by ken161

4) Final conclusion: The card doctors are light years ahead of Joe Orlando's hapless crew of "experts." Never get cheated.

PSA has been running a racket on collectors since 00000001 was slabbed by "experts". Any intelligent collector should know the amount of fraud that takes place in this hobby by now. It is all a giant system to drain funds out of collectors pockets: anonymous grading submissions, anonymous graders, anonymous consignments to auction houses, anonymous bidders at auction, anonymous high bidder, anonymous price history (high bidder identity). Oh yeah not to mention the accusations thrown a card doctor that bought a grading company with unknown amount of cards graded by the owner and/or employees. Those cards and volume are a complete unknown...

[signed79]

Anyone notice that PSA now hides the cert number in set registries?

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by This is

Hawk Dynasty is still a member here.

So is Brent Huigens, but he's only logged in once since his infamous post that he's not going away, he's going to face this head on, etc. Well, he's partially true. He's not going away from selling trimmed cards in PSA and BGS and SGC slabs from known trimmers. And doubling down by sending "trimmed?" cards back to PSA and BGS and having them reconfirm the grades...what a maroon.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by signed79

Anyone notice that PSA now hides the cert number in set registries?

Woah, they replaced it with Spec Number, which is the code for each of the specific cards that fit, that will be constant across all cards needed for that slot.

For example:
https://www.psacard.com/psasetregist...ltimeset/65032

Image
Spec # <<<< No value except to hide information from public investigators.
Card #
Item
Grade
Pop
Pop Higher
Comments

At least sets with pictures uploaded can still be tracked. PSA is lousy.

[cking]

Originally Posted by signed79

Anyone notice that PSA now hides the cert number in set registries?

Covering their tracks

Thats what criminals do