The 1986-87 Michael Jordan Fleer is such a "rookie" card that...

[PensChronicles]

...the set features four other Chicago Bulls wearing 1985-86 uniforms and two players that DIDN'T EVEN PLAY FOR THE BULLS in 1984-85, Jordan's rookie season.



Imagine if Fleer had put a photo of Jordan from 1985-86 on his 1986-87 Fleer like they did with the rest of the Bulls in the set. How many in the hobby would consider it a rookie card?



Many 1986 rookie card fanboys say "WELL, THE 1984 STAR WASN'T PACK PULLED!"

Well, it depends on what your definition of a "pack" is and how it applies to a "rookie" card.

1984 Star was distributed in clear team bags. You knew EXACTLY what you were getting - just like if you purchased a 1989 Upper Deck baseball factory set, you were 100% certain to get a Ken Griffey Jr. rookie card. Or if I purchase a 1983 Topps baseball rack pack with Wade Boggs and Ryne Sandberg rookie cards clearly evident in the rack pack. The Griffey, Boggs and Sandberg were ALL considered rookie cards, but were hardly "pack pulled."

Many hobby dinosaurs like Dr. James Beckett also cite mass distribution as a way to slight the 1984 Star being Jordan's true rookie card. There were many, many issues of Sports Collector's Digest that had several dealers advertising the Star cards. At one point, SCD had 100,000+ subscribers - no small number of eyeballs saw that it was available. It was also distributed at NBA arenas and in some cases directly from Star - both channels are used today for card distribution.

Just this weekend you had hobby gatekeepers like Chris McGill, Josh Johnson & Cage Lawyer partnering up to try and dance on Geoff Wilson's grave this weekend over his $144,000 unrealized gain on a 1984-85 Michael Jordan Star #101...well, until Ken Goldin came on their show and verified that the card was paid for on September 3rd via wire transfer...notice how Chris and Josh say they are aware of what Cage posted while Chris and Josh were doing their live. They undoubtedly knew that Cage was going to post.

https://x.com/PensChronicles/status/1835352889096548503

Now why would Chris, Josh & Cage want to tamp down the enthusiam for the 1984 Michael Jordan Star #101 being sold for $244,000?

#1 - Chris and Josh HATE Geoff Wilson and will stop seemingly at nothing - well, short of just sending a simple text to Ken Goldin to verify a legitimate sale - to disparage Geoff. Geoff may not be for everyone, but he's done innumerable things for kids in the hobby and helps promote the hobby.

Josh doesn't even consider the 1984 Star a "real card" and said that he "could make" the photo-matched 1932 Babe Ruth called shot jersey that set a world record as the highest sale in sports memorabilia history.

https://x.com/PensChronicles/status/1834020761784221918

#2 - Cage OWNS A 1986-87 Fleer Jordan and not selling it at its peak was one of his biggest hobby regrets.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ave-had-a-few/

As of this morning when I checked, the 1984-85 Michael Jordan Star #101 sale has been restored to Card Ladder. There won't be an apology or any sign of remorse from Chris McGill, Josh Johnson or Cage Lawyer who has since deleted his Instagram reel also attempting to dance on Geoff's grave.

Chris McGill and Josh Johnson continue to think that IF YOU DON'T HOBBY LIKE US, YOU'RE LESSER.

***DISCLAIMER*** I DO NOT OWN A 1984 MICHAEL JORDAN STAR #101 or a 1986 MICHAEL JORDAN FLEER #57. I ALSO DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO MARKET MOVERS OR CARD LADDER AND HAVE NO AFFILIATION WITH GOLDIN AUCTIONS.

[KhalDrogo]

Sounds like a lot of female drama. Probably best to have this on IG.

[hermanotarjeta]

1983 and 1989 upper deck were both released initially and primarily in the randomized sealed wax/foil pack forms by legitimate fully licensed companies, now of which both have historical and long track records of this type of nationally distributed and released products.

Broder and minor league baseball sets, including those from star, were also advertised in scd.

Who cares what a bunch of teenage girls are trying to pump?

[PensChronicles]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

1983 and 1989 upper deck were both released initially and primarily in the randomized sealed wax/foil pack forms by legitimate fully licensed companies, now of which both have historical and long track records of this type of nationally distributed and released products.

Broder and minor league baseball sets, including those from star, were also advertised in scd.

Who cares what a bunch of teenage girls are trying to pump?

The back of the 1984 Star Jordan #101 would like a word about the "fully licensed" part of your argument...



The Star company was so illegitimate that the "legitimate" Topps with a “historical and long track records of this type of nationally distributed and released products" made reprints of the Star brand in the mid-1990's...



The post has nothing to do with pumping. I don't care what the Star #101 sells for or what the Fleer #57 sells for.

The post has everything to do with being accurate when reporting what a card is/isn't and how much a card sells for superceding personal vendettas. Again, Chris and Josh HATE Geoff Wilson. They would rather damage Geoff's image and card rather than accurately report a sale.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by PensChronicles

The back of the 1984 Star Jordan #101 would like a word about the "fully licensed" part of your argument...



The Star company was so illegitimate that the "legitimate" Topps with a historical and long track records of this type of nationally distributed and released products" made reprints of the Star brand in the mid-1990's...



The post has nothing to do with pumping. I don't care what the Star #101 sells for or what the Fleer #57 sells for.

The post has everything to do with being accurate when reporting what a card is/isn't and how much a card sells for superceding personal vendettas. Again, Chris and Josh HATE Geoff Wilson. They would rather damage Geoff's image and card rather than accurately report a sale.

There is a YUGE difference between "barely licensed" and fully licensed". Fleer, Topps and Upper Deck all did it the right way - with nationally recognized products distributed in sealed, randomized pack form and decades of history. STAR basketball was an elementary school project that flopped - accept it.

Topps has issued cards that were promotional issues that were never released and placed them into latter released sets. Just look at 2024 finest baseball this year - they made reprint prototypes of their 1993 finest release using current players. Companies do this all the time to provide some variety to their now 40 plus release every year. It doesn't legitimize it as an actual product. Topps has done reprints of everything in the past, it doesn't mean a thing.

[PensChronicles]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

There is a YUGE difference between "barely licensed" and fully licensed". Fleer, Topps and Upper Deck all did it the right way - with nationally recognized products distributed in sealed, randomized pack form and decades of history. STAR basketball was an elementary school project that flopped - accept it.

Topps has issued cards that were promotional issues that were never released and placed them into latter released sets. Just look at 2024 finest baseball this year - they made reprint prototypes of their 1993 finest release using current players. Companies do this all the time to provide some variety to their now 40 plus release every year. It doesn't legitimize it as an actual product. Topps has done reprints of everything in the past, it doesn't mean a thing.

Please tell me the difference - and I want you to be specific - between the license Star had to distribute NBA cards and the license that Fleer had.

Argue you all you want about manufacturing and distribution, but 1984 Star was the only officially licensed manufacturer of NBA trading cards that season - Michael Jordan’s first year in the NBA.

Topps hasn’t done reprints of any unlicensed products that I’m aware of unless it was of their own unlicensed products from the 70’s/80’s (Montana rookie as an example). When will they be releasing a reprint of 1991 Post Cereal?

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by PensChronicles

Please tell me the difference - and I want you to be specific - between the license Star had to distribute NBA cards and the license that Fleer had.

Argue you all you want about manufacturing and distribution, but 1984 Star was the only officially licensed manufacturer of NBA trading cards that season - Michael Jordan’s first year in the NBA.

Topps hasn’t done reprints of any unlicensed products that I’m aware of unless it was of their own unlicensed products from the 70’s/80’s (Montana rookie as an example). When will they be releasing a reprint of 1991 Post Cereal?

Star didn't release their cards in the way all licensed companies were expected and known to release them.

There's a reason why Star doesn't get any respect, just as how collector's edge brand gets no respect as a short-lived now defunct company who couldn't survive the early 90's boom. Furthermore, there is too much room for controversy and a lack of transparency in how they produced, allocated and released their products.

You clearly underestimate the importance of the randomization factor of pack pulled cards. You must really put a lot of value in panini instant and topps now cards.

[3124508 on COMC]

[sethc1020]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Best post on the thread. Couldn't agree more.

[BambinoShuffle]

I don’t think it’s going as well as the op intended.

[PensChronicles]

Originally Posted by BambinoShuffle

I don’t think it’s going as well as the op intended.

I knew I was walking into Jurassic Park.

[hxcmilkshake]

Keep watching Instagram. They have cool cat videos too.

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

[rifleman69]

I like turtles.

[Nomad]

I don't get these whole debates. None of the 80s Jordans do I really covet, I already have my own personal grail, a second year sticker from my original collecting years. I somehow resisted the itch to peel all these years and it's worth like $200. But whatever.

I think Star is not great looking and it's not really nice cardboard, the photos always slightly out of focus, and that's a big reason it's second. I didn't have any Star basketball back in the 80s, but I did have a couple baseball issues, and they were always way down on the totem pole. Similar to Score. I can't believe this is not a huge pump, from people who already cashed out their Fleer Jordans and want something else to create income for their families.

No dishonor in that, but sheesh.

[Torro]

So something that was considered for decades as "The rookie" the one and only is now suddenly not exactly what it used to be. Maybe at some point in the future "the rookie" cards will not be as specially and desirable to the people as they are now, who knows maybe the new generations will view the cards where the player got MVP or the championship over rookie year stuff?

This situation is a great example of something that was so certain for a very long time is now debatable and people have different opinions about it. All together it send a signal to the hobby that things might change and nothing is set in stone.

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by Torro

So something that was considered for decades as "The rookie" the one and only is now suddenly not exactly what it used to be. Maybe at some point in the future "the rookie" cards will not be as specially and desirable to the people as they are now, who knows maybe the new generations will view the cards where the player got MVP or the championship over rookie year stuff?

This situation is a great example of something that was so certain for a very long time is now debatable and people have different opinions about it. All together it send a signal to the hobby that things might change and nothing is set in stone.

It's only debatable by the people that own the Star card.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by Torro

So something that was considered for decades as "The rookie" the one and only is now suddenly not exactly what it used to be. Maybe at some point in the future "the rookie" cards will not be as specially and desirable to the people as they are now, who knows maybe the new generations will view the cards where the player got MVP or the championship over rookie year stuff?

This situation is a great example of something that was so certain for a very long time is now debatable and people have different opinions about it. All together it send a signal to the hobby that things might change and nothing is set in stone.

You gotta wonder what the pump will be in 10, 20, 30 or even 50 years on Jordan stuff.

The 93 Scoring Kings will have its day. I can see it a mile away.

Most iconic 90s Jordan they'll say.

If I had $144k to spend on Jordan, it wouldn't be on the Star or the Fleer.

Watching the absolute pettiness from the pumpers has been pretty hilarious.

[duron]

Geoff may not be for everyone, but he's done innumerable things for kids in the hobby and helps promote the hobby.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by duron

Geoff may not be for everyone, but he's done innumerable things for kids in the hobby and helps promote the hobby.

He has also introduced kids into gambling with card breaks, treating cards as assets and not collecting, and also proudly brags when his kid rips someone off.

So I guess you are right, he is promoting the hobby for what it is ..

[PLB9eight]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

He has also introduced kids into gambling with card breaks, treating cards as assets and not collecting, and also proudly brags when his kid rips someone off.

So I guess you are right, he is promoting the hobby for what it is ..

Those who see his “good” deeds are still probably being scammed by him.

[duron]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

He has also introduced kids into gambling with card breaks, treating cards as assets and not collecting, and also proudly brags when his kid rips someone off.

So I guess you are right, he is promoting the hobby for what it is ..

Have you ever seen my posts?

I’m just quoting the best line from the op.

[Hellcat]

It simply comes down to supply and demand. There were roughly 3k printed of the 101 and roughly 250k of the 57 3rd year card. The 101 has always been the ONLY rookie card of MJ! Get over it guys!

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

It's only debatable by the people that own the Star card.

Originally Posted by Hellcat

It simply comes down to supply and demand. There were roughly 3k printed of the 101 and roughly 250k of the 57 3rd year card. The 101 has always been the ONLY rookie card of MJ! Get over it guys!

See above.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

It simply comes down to supply and demand. There were roughly 3k printed of the 101 and roughly 250k of the 57 3rd year card. The 101 has always been the ONLY rookie card of MJ! Get over it guys!

Why get upset over the xrc designation?

It’s like an asterisk, no biggie.

[Cardsandcoffee]

Star pumpers are upset and need to play revisionist history with the XRC designation in order to legitimize the insane pump it’s currently going through, as if going “see it’s a RC!!” will rationalize the hype. It’s an XRC, no shame in that. The real shame is that this card will drop and create massive bag holders once the FOMO and weird manipulation that’s been done wears off. Unlikely it’s ever going to be valued less than the comparable Fleer in the same grade but a pop of thousands still isn’t rare(and yes no one ever says the Fleer is rare either)