Are the Orioles frauds?

[boxbuster7]

I know this series isn't over but they have been one of the most hyped teams of the last couple years. They've rewritten the book on how to build a farm system and young core but are on the verge of getting swept 2 years in a row in the wild card round.

discuss.

[gowizards0]

yep, that was pathetic to watch. 9 playoff losses in a row

[JWBlue]

They have little to no chance of winning the World Series. Their bullpen is awful.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

I know this series isn't over but they have been one of the most hyped teams of the last couple years. They've rewritten the book on how to build a farm system and young core but are on the verge of getting swept 2 years in a row in the wild card round.

discuss.

Bit of an overreaction to losing a 1-0 pitching duel between two aces......

Its always been true that good pitching beats good hitting in the postseason, and that's even more true in this day and age.

[boxbuster7]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Bit of an overreaction to losing a 1-0 pitching duel between two aces......

Its always been true that good pitching beats good hitting in the postseason, and that's even more true in this day and age.

Corbin Burnes is a tier above Ragans in experience - He did his job but ultimately still lost.

[Hollywood42]

These past 2 years have been the very start of their competitive window, and it's going to stay open for a long time. Whether or not they bring home a title during it or not, who knows, but I think it's silly to call them frauds based on 3 games lost to the eventual World Series champs last year plus one game this year

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by Hollywood42

These past 2 years have been the very start of their competitive window, and it's going to stay open for a long time.

That kinda of depends on whether they sign their good young players to long term deals, or cheap out and trade them.

Rutschmann is under team control for three more seasons, Gunnar for four more seasons.

Burnes and Santander are FA's as soon as the last out of the World Series is made.

If Jackson Holiday doesn't develop into a productive major leaguer (and plenty of #1 picks haven't), their window could be shorter than people think. They only finished 2nd in the AL East this year, and could easily slip back to 3rd/4th (and out of the playoffs) next season.

[auctionjmm]

Originally Posted by mfw13

That kinda of depends on whether they sign their good young players to long term deals, or cheap out and trade them.

Rutschmann is under team control for three more seasons, Gunnar for four more seasons.

Burnes and Santander are FA's as soon as the last out of the World Series is made.

If Jackson Holiday doesn't develop into a productive major leaguer (and plenty of #1 picks haven't), their window could be shorter than people think. They only finished 2nd in the AL East this year, and could easily slip back to 3rd/4th (and out of the playoffs) next season.

MLB playoff windows are way different than other sports. Look at the Guardians. This is their 6th playoff berth in 9 years starting with their 2016 world series run and they haven't missed two years in a row yet. Yes, it took good trades and drafting to accomplish this but there doesn't seem to be an end in sight yet with the current roster and 4th best farm system. The Orioles farm is #3, so they are positioned similarly. We could still be talking about the Orioles window in 2035. It's setup to be quite wide.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

MLB playoff windows are way different than other sports. Look at the Guardians. This is their 6th playoff berth in 9 years starting with their 2016 world series run and they haven't missed two years in a row yet. Yes, it took good trades and drafting to accomplish this but there doesn't seem to be an end in sight yet with the current roster and 4th best farm system. The Orioles farm is #3, so they are positioned similarly. We could still be talking about the Orioles window in 2035. It's setup to be quite wide.

But at the same time, with more and more teams making the playoffs, just making the playoffs doesn't mean much anymore.

You've got to at least make the World Series to get remembered.

Yes, this is the Indians 6th playoff appearance in nine years, but they've only made it as far as the ALCS once (in 2016, the first year of this window, when they lost in the World Series).

The A's made the playoffs 11 times in 20 years and managed not to win a single ALCS game.

The Dodgers have made the playoffs 12 years in a row with only a single WS win to show for it (in the COVID-shortened 2020 season, no less).

The Braves won 15 consecutive AL East titles but only 1 WS.

And to be frank, the Orioles, despite having some good young players, don't look anywhere close to winning World Series title. But hey....with the playoffs consisting of so many short series, anything can happen!

[auctionjmm]

Originally Posted by mfw13

But at the same time, with more and more teams making the playoffs, just making the playoffs doesn't mean much anymore.

You've got to at least make the World Series to get remembered.

Yes, this is the Indians 6th playoff appearance in nine years, but they've only made it as far as the ALCS once (in 2016, the first year of this window, when they lost in the World Series).

The A's made the playoffs 11 times in 20 years and managed not to win a single ALCS game.

The Dodgers have made the playoffs 12 years in a row with only a single WS win to show for it (in the COVID-shortened 2020 season, no less).

The Braves won 15 consecutive AL East titles but only 1 WS.

And to be frank, the Orioles, despite having some good young players, don't look anywhere close to winning World Series title. But hey....with the playoffs consisting of so many short series, anything can happen!

Two different perspectives. Being "remembered" as a dynasty/juggernaut multi-WS winner certainly takes more than playoff appearances. Agreed on that.

If I were an Orioles fan though, given their playoff history, I'd be pretty happy with where the team is. Playoffs is fun for fans whether you win or lose, and since only 1 out of 30 teams wins, 29 go into the offseason as losers. It's not easy by any means, so I'd take consistent playoff baseball and enjoying October over just bowing out each year. Guardians may not have won a thing, but I've seen them in the playoffs 13 times in my lifetime. It was enjoyable even through the heartbreak of two game 7 WS losses. Orioles fans have seen their team 6 times in that same span. I think fans would still be excited to see them in the playoffs for a decade (if that happens) and since it only takes one time, one time would feel really good.

[oddstuff]

The offense needs to step it up as their strength is not in their pitching. Opportunity for Gunnar to show his stuff.

[JustinVerlander07]

They are probably gonna regret making trades around the fringes instead of trading for a Skubal type player at the deadline.

[Osfan81]

Their manager was great for the rebuild. He had patience, and he was even keeled. Players love him. However, the time has come for a new direction. He's so stale. In those 2 Tigers series at the end of the season, Hinch ran circles around Hyde because every move Hyde makes is predictable. He runs percentages on everything. There's no hit and run, no bunting. No moving runners over. Westburg's hit was a home run in 28 of 30 stadiums. When you live and die by the home run, that wall in left field means you'll die by the home run with their hitting approach. If you have a big left field wall, learn to play small ball. Hyde hasn't done that. They will never win a World Series with Hyde as manager.

[Osfan81]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

They are probably gonna regret making trades around the fringes instead of trading for a Skubal type player at the deadline.

Eflin was not a fringe trade acquisition. He was probably the best starter traded at the deadline. Rest of the guys they added, yup...but it's the offense, the offensive game plan, and the management decisions while batting that have done them in last 2 months.

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by Osfan81

Eflin was not a fringe trade acquisition. He was probably the best starter traded at the deadline. Rest of the guys they added, yup...but it's the offense, the offensive game plan, and the management decisions while batting that have done them in last 2 months.

He's been pretty good since the trade, but it most definitely was a fringe move and not trading for a guy to put them over the top. Your bias should even know that.

[Scottish Punk]

I don't remember that many big name pitchers on the move during the trade deadline. I don't think Skubal was really available. Who should have the Orioles traded for?

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by Scottish Punk

I don't remember that many big name pitchers on the move during the trade deadline. I don't think Skubal was really available. Who should have the Orioles traded for?

Snell......they certainly have enough good young players that they could have put together an attractive package for the Giants had they chosen to do so.

[Osfan81]

Originally Posted by Scottish Punk

I don't remember that many big name pitchers on the move during the trade deadline. I don't think Skubal was really available. Who should have the Orioles traded for?

Exactly...he was the biggest name pitcher moved at the deadline. I challenge anybody to find a better one that was dealt...

[Hollywood42]

Originally Posted by mfw13

That kinda of depends on whether they sign their good young players to long term deals, or cheap out and trade them.

Rutschmann is under team control for three more seasons, Gunnar for four more seasons.

Burnes and Santander are FA's as soon as the last out of the World Series is made.

If Jackson Holiday doesn't develop into a productive major leaguer (and plenty of #1 picks haven't), their window could be shorter than people think. They only finished 2nd in the AL East this year, and could easily slip back to 3rd/4th (and out of the playoffs) next season.

Extensions do matter but everything I've seen from the new owner makes me think things will be much different from the past. But even saying that:

Gunnar isn't a FA until 2029
Adley 2028
Cowser 2030
Westburg 2030
Bradish 2029
Grayson 2030

Even if we stop there and don't include other guys like Holliday, Cano, and Mountcastle, or yet even more top 10 prospects like Mayo and Basallo, that's still an incredible core that you have even without extensions for a longtime. I do think they need to figure some pitching stuff out, and that was my critique at the trade deadline, but hopefully we'll see them spend some money to address this in the offseason

Originally Posted by Osfan81

Exactly...he was the biggest name pitcher moved at the deadline. I challenge anybody to find a better one that was dealt...

I think the key thing here is that sure, there weren't really any massive named pitchers moved (though I'll say I think someone like Flaherty would have been a big pickup for the O's), but the O's absolutely had the pieces to pull off a massive blockbuster and really go for the throat. And they elected not to, for better or worse

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by Hollywood42

Extensions do matter but everything I've seen from the new owner makes me think things will be much different from the past. But even saying that:

Gunnar isn't a FA until 2029
Adley 2028
Cowser 2030
Westburg 2030
Bradish 2029
Grayson 2030

Even if we stop there and don't include other guys like Holliday, Cano, and Mountcastle, or yet even more top 10 prospects like Mayo and Basallo, that's still an incredible core that you have even without extensions for a longtime.

That might turn out to be a great core, and it might not. Even the best prospects are anything but sure things, and when you're in the same division as the Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays, your margin for error is pretty small.

[jdandns]

Yes, even someone with only limited ornithological expertise can see that they are, in fact, Venezuelan Troupials.

[UMich92]

Originally Posted by Scottish Punk

I don't remember that many big name pitchers on the move during the trade deadline. I don't think Skubal was really available. Who should have the Orioles traded for?

Based on what the Tigers got from the Dodgers for Flaherty, I think the Orioles may regret not ponying up for the rental. As a Tigers fan, I'm happy with how it's worked out but the return was underwhelming.

[no10pin]

I think it's a little early to call them frauds, but he shouldn't have been suspended for it!

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by no10pin

I think it's a little early to call them frauds, but he shouldn't have been suspended for it!

underrated comment.

[seanrs1]

The front office seems to care more about holding onto its top prospects than trading for a top line pitcher to win this year. But at some point the FO needs to open the checkbook to sign an ace...or trade for one.

If they were serious about winning a WS this year they would have traded the farm for Skubal.