American League MVP - Page 8

rngrdanny22 · 08-29-2022, 09:55 PM

We could use this comparison instead of WAR:

Gausman ERA+ = 125
Kirk OPS+ = 135

Ohtani ERA+ = 151
Ohtani OPS+ = 145

So, yes. He's singularly more valuable than the both of them combined.

rngrdanny22 · 08-29-2022, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pewe

I’m just demonstrating that in the current rules of the game that Ohtani is more easily replaced. And the added value comparison he’d have to overcome in his pursuit of P+DH play is higher than a stand alone position player.

It doesn’t take away from the fact that what he’s doing is unprecedented.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What "current rules" are you referring to?

rman112 · 08-29-2022, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

Is that what causes Gausman's WAR discrepancy?

Fangraphs = 5.1
BBRef = 2.4

Yep..

rngrdanny22 · 08-29-2022, 10:01 PM

Looking into OPS+ and ERA+ a little more, I see that Ohtani's OPS+ is 12 points lower this year while his ERA+ is 9 points higher. He's essentially just as dominant this year with a slight shift away from hitting and towards pitching.

Hopefully I don't get bashed again, but look at Vladdy last year and pretend he's in Judge's shoes right now. The vote was unanimous in favor of Ohtani, and he's basically the same player this year.

I think it's currently Judge's to lose, but if the season ended right now, it would be a lot closer than some of you realize.

rman112 · 08-29-2022, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zworykin

Ok, then, as I said, I'm not following. You seem to be suggesting that it's somehow to the team's detriment that Ohtani is occupying the DH slot. I'm saying that if he's in the DH slot, it's because the team has decided he is their best option that day at DH. If he's such a valuable batter that the team considers it better to have him in the lineup than, say, to let Trout DH that day to rest his legs... that says something positive about his value, not negative.

Put it this way:

Trout and his back. He either starts in CF, or he doesn't play. It's not about how good of a DH Ohtani is, or if Trout is better than Ohtani. It's what kind of options they have, and how good 1-9 can be on any given night.

zworykin · 08-29-2022, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pewe

So you are saying Ohtani is more valuable than Verlander + Yordan? Or Gausman + Kirk?

I'm saying that if you have Verlander and Yordan, then you have two roster spots that are completely tied up. Verlander will give you a start every five games and sit in the pen the other four, and Yordan will DH all five. Fine. Totally normal-way stuff there. Nothing wrong with it. Two great players making great contributions to the team.

Ohtani will give you one (almost-Verlander-caliber) start every five games, plus DH (at almost-Yordan-level) in his start plus two or three of the other four games (as was already mentioned, teams are already frequently using the DH spot to give guys a semi-rest day, so to me (to pewe's point) the fact that he doesn't DH every single day doesn't mean that he "doesn't really count" as saving you a full roster spot). Meanwhile you have another roster spot available, which you can use to carry another reliever if your bullpen has been getting worn out, or let some AAA(A) guy get that cup of coffee and get the chance to see what he's really got against major-league competition, or literally whatever you want to do with an extra roster spot.

Thought experiment. Rosters get reset and we're re-drafting every team from the entire players' union. You're the GM of the team with the first pick (and let's stipulate that your owner is more Cohen/Steinbrenner than Fisher/Sherman). Are you not taking Ohtani?

rngrdanny22 · 08-29-2022, 10:11 PM

At this rate, Judge isn't going to get many more AB's the rest of the year...

rman112 · 08-29-2022, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

At this rate, Judge isn't going to get many more AB's the rest of the year...

Benintendi protecting Judge ... with Stanton in the lineup = Massive Stupidity

rngrdanny22 · 08-29-2022, 10:13 PM

Haven't validated this, but this is nuts:

NYRE2PECT · 08-29-2022, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

Haven't validated this, but this is nuts:

Awesomeness!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BigL7370 · 08-29-2022, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

Haven't validated this, but this is nuts:

As the Angels finish the year 70-92…

Stifle · 08-29-2022, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

Haven't validated this, but this is nuts:

The Grays were pretty close to what the Angels are, 5th out of 7 teams vs Angels 12th in AL out of 15 teams.

Chris Lyle · 08-29-2022, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnewby

Who cares about Jose Ramirez?!?!?! This is a thread about the MVP race.

He should be in the race. I brought him up with some conversation about him because I find it ridiculous that he isn't in the conversation. Not sure what else he has to do.

rngrdanny22 · 08-29-2022, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigL7370

As the Angels finish the year 70-92…

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stifle

The Grays were pretty close to what the Angels are, 5th out of 7 teams vs Angels 12th in AL out of 15 teams.

I get the sentiment, but what does that have to do with this individual achievement?

rngrdanny22 · 08-29-2022, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Lyle

He should be in the race. I brought him up with some conversation about him because I find it ridiculous that he isn't in the conversation. Not sure what else he has to do.

He's just not even remotely close though. Let's just compare him to Judge, for example.

OPS+ - Judge by 40
WAR - Judge by 2.5 (BBRef)
HR, AVG, OBP, OPS - Judge, by a lot

Ohtani is the only person that could be considered in a race with Judge and it completely hinges on his ability as both a hitter and pitcher.

Jose Ramirez isn't even close.

Since someone else brought up betting odds, this was as of this morning:
Judge -900
Ohtani +500
Ramirez +8000

If you want to consider him "in the race" because he's third, sure, but he's already been lapped by #1 and #2 and has no shot of catching up in the last mile.

BigSlim16 · 08-29-2022, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

I get the sentiment, but what does that have to do with this individual achievement?

Exactly. It’s the most valuable player award, not the best player on the best team award

no10pin · 08-29-2022, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Lyle

He should be in the race. I brought him up with some conversation about him because I find it ridiculous that he isn't in the conversation. Not sure what else he has to do.

Strike out 10 in his next start?

The good news is, he's third in betting odds. Bad news, it's +8000 on the site I saw.

Ramirez is having a great year, but Judge's numbers are significantly better, and we both know NY gets 10 times more attention than Cleveland.

rman112 · 08-29-2022, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no10pin

Strike out 10 in his next start?

The good news is, he's third in betting odds. Bad news, it's +8000 on the site I saw.

Ramirez is having a great year, but Judge's numbers are significantly better, and we both know NY gets 10 times more attention than Cleveland.

Yeah. I mean, Ramirez is having a really good year. But it's who he's competing against.

Chris Lyle · 08-29-2022, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

He's just not even remotely close though. Let's just compare him to Judge, for example.

OPS+ - Judge by 40
WAR - Judge by 2.5 (BBRef)
HR, AVG, OBP, OPS - Judge, by a lot

Ohtani is the only person that could be considered in a race with Judge and it completely hinges on his ability as both a hitter and pitcher.

Jose Ramirez isn't even close.

So importance to team along with great numbers means nothing is what you are saying not the MVP award then.

Hits HR RBI's SB's Avg OBP OPS
135 49 109 14 .292 .395 1.049 (Judge)

132 26 106 14 .283 .353 .901 (JRam)

Not as far as you think plus Guardians versus Yankees.

Chris Lyle · 08-29-2022, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rman112

Yeah. I mean, Ramirez is having a really good year. But it's who he's competing against.

Then it's not a MVP sorry Guardians are literally where they are because of JRam.

Chris Lyle · 08-29-2022, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no10pin

Strike out 10 in his next start?

The good news is, he's third in betting odds. Bad news, it's +8000 on the site I saw.

Ramirez is having a great year, but Judge's numbers are significantly better, and we both know NY gets 10 times more attention than Cleveland.

I get it and I probably should shut up now but importance to your team should carry more weight than it does.

johnlocke36 · 08-29-2022, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zworykin

I'm saying that if you have Verlander and Yordan, then you have two roster spots that are completely tied up. Verlander will give you a start every five games and sit in the pen the other four, and Yordan will DH all five. Fine. Totally normal-way stuff there. Nothing wrong with it. Two great players making great contributions to the team.

Ohtani will give you one (almost-Verlander-caliber) start every five games, plus DH (at almost-Yordan-level) in his start plus two or three of the other four games (as was already mentioned, teams are already frequently using the DH spot to give guys a semi-rest day, so to me (to pewe's point) the fact that he doesn't DH every single day doesn't mean that he "doesn't really count" as saving you a full roster spot). Meanwhile you have another roster spot available, which you can use to carry another reliever if your bullpen has been getting worn out, or let some AAA(A) guy get that cup of coffee and get the chance to see what he's really got against major-league competition, or literally whatever you want to do with an extra roster spot.

Thought experiment. Rosters get reset and we're re-drafting every team from the entire players' union. You're the GM of the team with the first pick (and let's stipulate that your owner is more Cohen/Steinbrenner than Fisher/Sherman). Are you not taking Ohtani?

The angels have like 16 players with a negative war. I don't think the extra roster spot is worth that much. To answer your other question, it depends what you are trying to accomplish. Win and sell tickets win the world series this year, team friendly octracts etc.

If my only goal was to win the world series this year I wouldn't take Ohtani or Judge

rman112 · 08-29-2022, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Lyle

Then it's not a MVP sorry Guardians are literally where they are because of JRam.

What is up with the use of "literally" today?

Chris Lyle · 08-29-2022, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rman112

What is up with the use of "literally" today?

No idea what you are talking about... I am officially headed to where I should be and that is bed.

rngrdanny22 · 08-29-2022, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Lyle

So importance to team along with great numbers means nothing is what you are saying not the MVP award then.

Hits HR RBI's SB's Avg OBP OPS
135 49 109 14 .292 .395 1.049 (Judge)

132 26 106 14 .283 .353 .901 (JRam)

Not as far as you think plus Guardians versus Yankees.

JRam has the same OPS as Juan Soto (who is having a down year).

He is .148 behind Judge and you think this is close?

After looking at your profile picture and location, I've decided to disengage because I doubt you'll admit he isn't completely out of it.

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08-29-2022, 09:55 PM	#176
rngrdanny22 Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 12,372	We could use this comparison instead of WAR: Gausman ERA+ = 125 Kirk OPS+ = 135 Ohtani ERA+ = 151 Ohtani OPS+ = 145 So, yes. He's singularly more valuable than the both of them combined.

08-29-2022, 10:01 PM	#179
rngrdanny22 Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 12,372	Looking into OPS+ and ERA+ a little more, I see that Ohtani's OPS+ is 12 points lower this year while his ERA+ is 9 points higher. He's essentially just as dominant this year with a slight shift away from hitting and towards pitching. Hopefully I don't get bashed again, but look at Vladdy last year and pretend he's in Judge's shoes right now. The vote was unanimous in favor of Ohtani, and he's basically the same player this year. I think it's currently Judge's to lose, but if the season ended right now, it would be a lot closer than some of you realize.

08-29-2022, 10:11 PM	#182
rngrdanny22 Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 12,372	At this rate, Judge isn't going to get many more AB's the rest of the year...

08-29-2022, 10:13 PM	#184
rngrdanny22 Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 12,372	Haven't validated this, but this is nuts: