PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[mjohnatgt]

I haven't yet. Just checked my email and got an advertisement for PWCC's auctions sent from PSA, lauding specifically the 1952 Topps Mantle PSA 4.5. I am responding back to that email, explaining the issues with that card and the auctions from PWCC. Maybe PSA will realize the egg they're getting on their face by working with PWCC and their stable of trimming/altering/"conserving" nameless/faceless consignors.

[LSUNatChamps]

I just received a marketing email from PSA Auction News for PWCC 2019 Premier Auction #5 with the Mantle card at the top of its "Auction Showcase". It notes that "This card has been given the 'Exceptional' designation, rating it in the Top 15% of all PSA 4.5's in the world."

Something is certainly off with all of the key players in this situation - grader, auction house, and consignors. The marketing email makes it all feel even dirtier.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by LSUNatChamps

I just received a marketing email from PSA Auction News for PWCC 2019 Premier Auction #5 with the Mantle card at the top of its "Auction Showcase". It notes that "This card has been given the 'Exceptional' designation, rating it in the Top 15% of all PSA 4.5's in the world."

Something is certainly off with all of the key players in this situation - grader, auction house, and consignors. The marketing email makes it all feel even dirtier.

I would say that's there's a nontrivial chance that two of those key players are one in the same.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by LSUNatChamps

I just received a marketing email from PSA Auction News for PWCC 2019 Premier Auction #5 with the Mantle card at the top of its "Auction Showcase". It notes that "This card has been given the 'Exceptional' designation, rating it in the Top 15% of all PSA 4.5's in the world."

Something is certainly off with all of the key players in this situation - grader, auction house, and consignors. The marketing email makes it all feel even dirtier.

For those of us who love cards, and have integrity, it just sucks that we have to see all this sleaze. There, I don't feel better.

[CaptSpaulding]

From John's post where he finished up recreating the submission...39 certs listed, 14 cards did not grade. Of the 25 that did grade PWCC sold 13 of them and of those 13, five got designations for eye appeal.

04-09 were not graded : returned ungraded for alterations or min grade?
10 1955 Roberto Clemente RC PSA 4
11 1955 Sandy Koufax RC PSA 7
12 1955 Parkhurst Jacques Plante PSA 7 PWCC 3/25/2019
13 *no cert*
14 1956 Topps Hank Aaron PSA 8.5 PWCC-HE 3/13/2019
15 *no cert*
16 1956 Topps Ted Williams PSA 7 PWCC-HE 3/13/2019
17 1957 Topps Johnny Unitas RC PSA 7.5
18 1957 Topps Sandy Koufax PSA 7.5
19 *no cert*
20 1958 Topps Bobby Hull PSA 5 PWCC 3/25/2019
21 1958 Topps Ted Williams PSA 7 PWCC-HE 4/10/2009
22 1958 Topps Orlando Cepeda RC PSA 9
23 *no cert*
24 1961 Fleer Wilt Chamberlain PSA 7 PWCC 3/20/2019
25 *no cert*
26 1963 Fleer Checklist PSA 8.5 PWCC-PQ 3/14/2019
27 *no cert*
28 *no cert*
29 *no cert*
30 1965 Topps Steve Carlton RC PSA 9 PWCC 3/14/2019
31 1965 Topps Steve Carlton RC PSA 8.5
32 1966 Philadelphia Jim Brown PSA 9 PWCC 3/24/2019
33 1967 Topps Tom Seaver RC PSA 8 PWCC 3/17/2019
34 1968 Topps Nolan Ryan RC PSA 8 PWCC 4/14/2019
35 1969 Topps Reggie Jackson RC PSA 8.5
36 1969 Topps Mickey Mantle White Letter PSA 7
37 1975 Topps Hank Aaron PSA 8 PWCC 3/17/2019
38 1979 Topps Wayne Gretzky PSA 8 PWCC-HE 3/22/2019
39 1979 OPC Wayne Gretzky PSA 8
40 1985 OPC Mario Lemieux PSA 9
41 1921 Exhibits Babe Ruth PSA 5
42 1996 Pokemon Japanese Dragonair PSA 9 (is this the end?)

[KhalDrogo]

Even if you personally don’t care if this card is altered or conserved or whatever, why on earth would you spend tens of thousands of dollars on something that is forever flagged, when you can fairly easily get a non-controversial copy?

[corndog]

PWCC is in a unique position to actually hold in hand all of these cards that pass through their auctions. Whether raw or graded, they can measure for slight oversize or inspect for potential "conservation" work that will add value to a new submission or resubmission of an already graded card. Then they can be the high bidder and begin the "conservation" process. It's been a perfect situation to operate as a consigner and be able to cherry pick the goods.

Ebay has the records of bidder's identities.
PSA and BGS have the records of submitter's identities.

The door has been opened and it's going to get ugly.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by corndog

PWCC is in a unique position to actually hold in hand all of these cards that pass through their auctions. Whether raw or graded, they can measure for slight oversize or inspect for potential "conservation" work that will add value to a new submission or resubmission of an already graded card. Then they can be the high bidder and begin the "conservation" process. It's been a perfect situation to operate as a consigner and be able to cherry pick the goods.

Ebay has the records of bidder's identities.
PSA and BGS have the records of submitter's identities.

The door has been opened and it's going to get ugly.

We lost a lot of transparency when ebay began protecting bidder IDs.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Even if you personally don’t care if this card is altered or conserved or whatever, why on earth would you spend tens of thousands of dollars on something that is forever flagged, when you can fairly easily get a non-controversial copy?

Your post reminds me of those rare art collectors who don’t mind buying stolen art.

Integrity isn’t important to many in our (unregulated) hobby, and it’s the small guys who always get burned because of it.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Your post reminds me of those rare art collectors who don’t mind buying stolen art.

Integrity isn’t important to many in our (unregulated) hobby, and it’s the small guys who always get burned because of it.

Yeah, I am not sure how much the investor/sales tax avoiding/ship it to the vault type would really care about this.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by pspa123

We lost a lot of transparency when ebay began protecting bidder IDs.

I’m thinking its possible to subpoena this information...

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

I’m thinking its possible to subpoena this information...

Of course, but one would need an investigation by law enforcement.

[corndog]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

I’m thinking its possible to subpoena this information...

That is where I was going...

Patience...

Investigations take time.

[KhalDrogo]

No doubt in my mind that these Tenets are a misguided attempt to reduce legal liability for all of these altered cards that are coming back to bite them.

[HarryLime]

I definitely get an Icarus vibe from Brent but I don't think it's going to be this stuff. There's so much plausible deniability.

Arthur

[Rooftop]

I’m sure Robin Hood is out there and going to over bid the Mantle and not pay

[mrdallas]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

No doubt in my mind that these Tenets are a misguided attempt to reduce legal liability for all of these altered cards that are coming back to bite them.

100% agree with this. PWCC did not expect a forum to have some of the best detectives uncovering some crazy fraud.

I for one am happy to see a non serial numbered card, caught red handed.

I think PWCC underestimated the resourcefulness of the BODA.

[CaptSpaulding]

So of the 80 cards in the submission that included the 52 Mantle, 29 did not grade for either alteration, being miscut or being minimum size. 33 of the 51 cards ended up getting sold by PWCC and of those 18 were granted an eye appeal designation. If these were not Brent's cards, and someone suggested they are not seeing evidence of it--dunno what evidence they are seeing that suggests otherwise--then some consignor is clearly benefiting from what PWCC claims is an unbiased process of having their cards reviewed for eye appeal.

When Brent was identified as the submitter of the 1936 WWG Joe DiMaggio right before it turned into a PSA 7 from an SGC 50, the submission I created looked just like the one with the 52 Mantle. High percentage of cards sold by PWCC, of those a high percentage of cards with an HE designation and many of the cards had identifiable characteristics that could be traced to cards previously residing in lower graded holders, which I would bet would be the outcome if anyone wanted to track the 51 cards here that graded.

[KhalDrogo]

PWCC claims the PQ/HE designation is blinded as the cards are sorted prior to being reviewed. But as I’ve said before, that’s total BS. Brent is the one who gets the final say on the designation. Are you telling me he is completely unaware of who is submitting all of these vintage monsters for consignment?

[superdan49]

I suppose then that these are the three questions for PWCC:

1) Did Brent/PWCC win the Heritage auction for the 1952 Topps Mantle PSA 4.5?
2) If yes, was this card conserved (by PWCC's definition) before submitting it for grading (and once again receiving a PSA 4.5)?
3) Who at PWCC makes the call on HE and other such designations? Is it a team decision or the call of one person?

[pspa123]

A musical interlude from the great Joe South tune.

Oh the games people play now
Every night and every day now
Never meaning what they say now
Never saying what they mean

[cking]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I suppose then that these are the three questions for PWCC:

1) Did Brent/PWCC win the Heritage auction for the 1952 Topps Mantle PSA 4.5?
2) If yes, was this card conserved (by PWCC's definition) before submitting it for grading (and once again receiving a PSA 4.5)?
3) Who at PWCC makes the call on HE and other such designations? Is it a team decision or the call of one person?

I would be surprised if they decide to answer anymore questions.

Every word they type they dig themselves a deeper hole. I think they are starting to see that.

[mrdallas]

At some point if a reporter wants to make a name for themsleves and could get a story on the front page of yahoo..... Then some serious damage will start to be done. The evidence is overwhelming and the money involved has become large enough to catch a lot of attention. PWCC will undoubtedly stop posting in response anymore, and I agree with cking. They only dig a deeper hole.

I am looking forward their new altered/restored explanation they are coming out with. It is going to hurt them more than help them IMO. There comes a point where no matter how loyal people are. I think everyone has a breaking point.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I suppose then that these are the three questions for PWCC:

1) Did Brent/PWCC win the Heritage auction for the 1952 Topps Mantle PSA 4.5?
2) If yes, was this card conserved (by PWCC's definition) before submitting it for grading (and once again receiving a PSA 4.5)?
3) Who at PWCC makes the call on HE and other such designations? Is it a team decision or the call of one person?

#3 has already been answered by PWCC.

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/eye-appeal-faq#faq-3

How does a card get reviewed for these designations, and how is the determination made?

Each vintage card (pre-1987) that is consigned to PWCC with an estimated value over $250 is reviewed by our two Consignment Directors and then queued up for the final assessment by our CEO and Founder, Brent Huigens. With 25+ years of experience handling vintage cards, Brent is able to identify those that present an exceptional or superior appeal with its assigned technical grade.

A key component to this program is that PWCC makes the determination without bias. Firstly, PWCC does not charge consignors for this review service. Secondly, the potential for any bias is further removed by doing the eye appeal review after all auction items are sorted by sport, issue, and year which shields Brent from any consignor information ensuring that the evaluation be based on visual presentation only.

[corndog]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Very interesting and disturbing thread. Thought it would be illuminating to attempt to recreate the submission that might have contained the 52 Topps Mantle in its present holder, cert number 42775201, that PWCC has listed presently that underwent "conservation". Below are 42 sequential certs. Please forgive the formatting. First "column" is the cert #, next is the card identity, next is where it had been sold, next is the ebay item number and finally the date of the sale. Of the 42 certs, 15 cards did not grade. Of the 27 that did grade, 20 of them were sold by PWCC with the other 7 not having been offered yet for sale. Of the 20 that PWCC sold (or is selling due to the 52 Mantle) 13 of those have a designation for eye appeal either HE, PQ or E.

I know this thread is about the restoration that has been done to the 52 Mantle and PWCC's defense of that work but it should be noted that the submission that I recreated, which I cannot say for certain was a submission made by PWCC, did result in 20 of the 27 cards having been listed by PWCC. Further, and even more troubling, is that "consignment" contains a very high percentage of cards getting an eye appeal designation by PWCC, which we all know means that card sells for even more than it would have on its own.

This just happens to come on the heels of my exchanging emails with Betsy the last few days about that process and my suspicion that those designations are not at all applied in an unbiased manner. Goes without saying that despite 2 long emails from her I absolutely do not buy that the process is at all unbiased. Anyway, one of the things she told me was that they issue only 30-50 designations per auction. Some lucky "consignor" ended up with 13 just from one submission. Is that luck or what? I will go with what and not luck.

Back in 2017, Brent was associated with the buying and grading of a 1936 World Wide Gum #51 Joe DiMaggio SGC 50 that had undergone some work and ended up in a PSA 7, that PWCC eventually listed. This is a VERY long thread http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=234837. The reason I bring this up is because it is yet one more high profile and expensive card that has undergone work that PWCC is associated with but also on that thread I recreated part of the submission that would have included the Joe D card. If you go to post 574 you can see the submission. Remarkably the results of the partial submission I recreated are eerily similar to the submission with the 52 Mantle. And in the Joe D submission I was able to identify some of the cards as having been worked on and provided before images.

42775162 T206 Polar Bear Tris Speaker PSA 5 PWCC 401719781687 3/12/2019
42775163 T206 Sweet Caproal 150/30 Cy Young Cle. Bare Hands Show PSA 4 PWCC-PQ 401719782292 3/12/2019
42775164 T206 Piedmont 150 Cy Young Cleveland Portrait PSA 2
42775165 T206 Soverign 150 Ty Cobb Bat On Shoulder PSA 5
42775166 Missing
42775167 T206 Soverign 350 Christy Mathewson Portrait PSA 5 PWCC-PQ 401739871290 4/9/2019
42775168 Missing
42775169 T206 Piedmont 350 Christy Mathewson White Cap PSA 4.5
42775170 T206 Sweet Caporal 350/30 Cy Young Cleve Glove Shows PSA 4.5 PWCC-PQ 352607768563 3/12/2019
42775171 Missing
42775172 1921 E121 American Caramel "Babe" Ruth PSA 4 Series 80
42775173 Missing
42775174 1926 W512 #6 Babe Ruth PSA 4 PWCC 352607783744 3/12/2019
42775175 1932 US Caramel #14 Ty Cobb PSA 4
42775176 Missing
42775177 Missing
42775178 Missing
42775179 1935 National Chicle #27 Bull Tosi PSA 8 PWCC 352617679642 3/24/2019
42775180 Missing
42775181 1938 Goudey #258 Bobby Doerr PSA 5 PWCC 401719801102 3/12/2019
42775182 Missing
42775183 1948 Bowman #36 Stan Musial PSA 8 PWCC-HE 352607793781 3/12/2019
42775184 Missing
42775185 1948 Leaf #3 Babe Ruth PSA 5 PWCC-PQ 143194058211 4/9/2019
42775186 1948 Leaf #79 Jackie Robinson PSA 4 PWCC-PQ 352607795622 3/12/2019
42775187 1948 Leaf #4 Stan Musial PSA 6 PWCC 401734486168 3/31/2019
42775188 1948 Leaf #138 Larry Doby PSA 4 PWCC-HE 401739891749 4/9/2019
42775189 1948 Leaf #4 Stan Musial PSA 7 PWCC-HE 401739891345 4/9/2019
42775190 1948 Leaf #32 Warren Spahn PSA 4 PWCC-HE 143194058409 4/9/2019
42775191 1948 Leaf #1 Jack Dempsey PSA 5
42775192 1948 Leaf #34 Sammy Baugh Maroon Jersey PSA 7 PWCC-HE 401729596471 3/24/2019
42775193 1949 Bowman #224 Satchel Paige PSA 6 PWCC 352630834050 4/9/2019
42775194 Missing
42775195 1951 Bowman #253 Mickey Mantle PSA 5 PWCC-HE 352630838839 4/9/2019
42775196 1951 Bowman #305 Willie Mays PSA 4 PWCC 352608453494 3/13/2019
42775197 Missing
42775198 Missing
42775199 1951 Bowman #7 Gil Hodges PSA 9 PWCC-HE 352608451966 3/13/2019
42775200 Missing
42775201 1952 Topps #311 Mickey Mantle PSA 4.5 PWCC-E 352652483287 CURRENTLY LISTED
42775202 Missing
42775203 1953 Bowman #32 Stan Musial PSA 6

I was able to find an earlier sale of the highlighted in red 1948 Leaf Stan Musial PSA 7 that was sold by PWCC on April 9, 2019. The exact same card was a BVG 6 and sold on November 11, 2017. I did the best I could to do a split screen of the two cards top to bottom and align the interior blue image up. The right edge of the PSA 7 has been trimmed - look at the white border lineup on the right edge. I have circled the areas that identify the two cards as being the same. I had to view 587 completed listings on Worthpoint to find the BVG sample. I don't have the capability to see who made the BVG purchase.

From the list I selected the Musial card first and was able to find the pre-trimmed sale. Any help to identify the buyer would be greatly appreciated.

Link to the Ebay PSA-7 sale here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-S...orig_cvip=true
Link to the BVG-6 sale here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...bvg-1896777694

Split image with PSA 7 on the top:
2


PSA 7 and BVG 6 front:


PSA 7 and BVG 6 back: