BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[HBMC]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Those who compiled data on Joe's submissions: there were a ton of serial numbers between Joe's BGS 10 cards that were Magic the Gathering cards graded 0.0, meaning Authentic. I do not believe this has a thing to do with Joe himself, but the question must be asked: do Beckett graders have special serial numbers they use for atypical or potentially fraudulent cards/orders?

This is possibly a big development. I'll look into this myself tonight, but if someone else wants to go through, you can find a lot of examples of MTG cards with a 0.0 grade occupying the serial numbers between Joe's BGS cards.

I noticed this too, I didn't want to make my already long posts even longer with more tangents. One of the large submissions I was researching had quite a few Non-Sport, Non-Gaming cards mixed in amongst the sports cards (DragonBall Z, Final Fantasy, etc) pulling 10's and BL's as well as the BKB cards. I have one of them written down and will gladly transcribe it here for everyone to see.

I saw quite a few "No Record" listings mixed in around some of these questionable orders too.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by MNmoose78

That was my point with the list I added, he had a ton of cards with serial numbers in between other cards all graded at various times, so no way in hell were they all input at the same time for his grads, but wasn’t one of his big things that all his Black Labels were grouped together for some reason, well not the ones I posted!

You're a great Moose.
The cards in bold, received 0.0 grades
The other MTG cards were graded

Really strange that two of the descriptions have changed, since you posted these results.

Originally Posted by MNmoose78

All the BGS 10’s and the start of the 9.5’s at the end were graded on October 9, 2018

10863351 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863353 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863534 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863355 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863359 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863360 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863364 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863372 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863379 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863384 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863386 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863388 Card serial number does not exist in database (Now it's listed as 2017 Acuna BGS 10, Oct 9, 2018) that's really strange
10863398 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018 (Now Jacob deGrom BGS 10, Oct 9, 2018) again, really strange
10863390 Magic the Gathering Oct 30; 2018
10863391 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863397 No information available
10863399 Card serial number does not exist in database
10863401 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863404 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863405 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018 (actually graded as a 9)
10863406 Card serial number does not exist in database
10863407 Card serial number does not exist in database
10863409 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018 (actually graded as a 9)
10863410 Card serial number does not exist in database
10863414 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863416 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018 (actually graded as a 7.5)
10863418 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863420 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863422 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863426 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863430 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863431 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863432 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018
10863434 Magic the Gathering Oct 30, 2018 (actually graded as a 9.5)

I’m sure the BGS 9.5’s continue after this but I’m stopping here. The blank numbers I just stopped adding what was in there but it was more of cards that were graded on Oct 15th, Magic the Gathering cards, cards with no info and serial numbers that don’t exist.

[mrbasepauly]

Damn, walk away from this thread for a few days and the #@#@#@#@ just get shadier and shadier. Anyone who buys Leaf products from now on, look at what you're supporting.

What has Beckett's grading response been to all of this?

[auburn35]

Here's some more 0.0 MTG cards that continue where MNmoose78 stopped. I got tired at 10863500, possibly continues on.
Like the previous group, there were a few cards from this submission that were graded.

October 30, 2018
10863437
10863448
10863449
10863456
10863468
10863470
10863471
10863482
10863483
10863484
10863489
10863490
10863492
10863496

[superdan49]

This info should be passed on to Rudy from Alpha Investments who did that video about the shady BGS-graded MTG cards. This merits further investigation. We need to find out if those 0.0 Magic cards mixed in with the Leaf and Joe BGS orders were ever sold, and if so by which eBay seller(s).

[twoten01]

Leaf Wrestling. All that has to be said about BG's character. How is he not banned when it's been proven he has backdoored cards? This not only looks bad for Leaf but also bad on BO, I know I've stopped my purchases here because of that

[mrdallas]

Originally Posted by twoten01

Leaf Wrestling. All that has to be said about BG's character. How is he not banned when it's been proven he has backdoored cards? This not only looks bad for Leaf but also bad on BO, I know I've stopped my purchases here because of that

I am actually surprised he is posting regularly today on the PWCC thread but avoiding this one like the plague

[DaRitz]

Originally Posted by superdan49

This info should be passed on to Rudy from Alpha Investments who did that video about the shady BGS-graded MTG cards. This merits further investigation. We need to find out if those 0.0 Magic cards mixed in with the Leaf and Joe BGS orders were ever sold, and if so by which eBay seller(s).

How could you know if they were sold?

Aren't the 0.0's just cards that didn't meet the required minimum, and returned raw?

You'd have to find a graded one in the bunch that was sold, and then infer any ungraded cards from that seller....

(I think. Although I'm assuming some uniformity in the BGS database.)

[Super8er]

Alpha Investments put up a new video in which he cracks that BGS Authentic Altered Magic card.

I don't know how to embed YouTube videos, can someone else do it?

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by Super8er

Alpha Investments put up a new video in which he cracks that BGS Authentic Altered Magic card.

I don't know how to embed YouTube videos, can someone else do it?

[KhalDrogo]

The MTG stuff is fascinating. Warrants a new thread if you can get good info.

[auburn35]

Here's some updates to the lists in the OP

New additions to the 12/13/18 list from the OP
11001295 Black Label
11001296 Black Label
11001297 Black Label
11001310 (BGS 10)
11001311 (BGS 10)
11001313 (BGS 10)
11001314 (BGS 10)
11001316 (BGS 10)
11001318 (BGS 10)
11001319 (BGS 10)
11001320 (BGS 10)
11001322 (BGS 10)
11001324 (BGS 10)
11001325 (BGS 10)
11001327 (BGS 10)
11001328 (BGS 10)
11001329 (BGS 10)
Similar pattern goes on at least through 11001373 BGS 10
(Obvious patter, on to next list)

New additions to the 12/19/18 List from the OP
11014561 MTG 0.0
11014566 MTG 0.0
11014569 MTG 0.0
11014572 MTG 0.0
11014574 MTG 0.0
11014576 MTG 0.0
11014578 MTG 0.0
11014579 MTG 0.0
Almost every other card in this particular run is a black label or MTG 0.0

1/28/18
Actual graded MTG stuff in both directions, from the List in the OP

New additions to the 2/19/19 List of Joe’s Black labels from the OP
11142993 Black Label
11142994 Black Label
11142995 Black Label
All kinds of Yu-Gi-Oh cards among these submission 2/19/19 numbers

[Brobocop]

As someone who dabbles a bit in MTG and has a few cards, the thickness of the fake card that Rudy is describing should have been a dead giveaway. Either the grader was in on it or is clueless about MTG cards and shouldn't be allowed to touch them, let alone grade them. That's awful.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

As someone who dabbles a bit in MTG and has a few cards, the thickness of the fake card that Rudy is describing should have been a dead giveaway. Either the grader was in on it or is clueless about MTG cards and shouldn't be allowed to touch them, let alone grade them. That's awful.

With as many MTG 0.0 that MNmoose78 discovered, I would also be suspicious of the few that actually did get graded, from that batch.

[kyaa]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Here's some updates to the lists in the OP

New additions to the 12/13/18 list from the OP
11001295 Black Label
11001296 Black Label
11001297 Black Label
11001310 (BGS 10)
11001311 (BGS 10)
11001313 (BGS 10)
11001314 (BGS 10)
11001316 (BGS 10)
11001318 (BGS 10)
11001319 (BGS 10)
11001320 (BGS 10)
11001322 (BGS 10)
11001324 (BGS 10)
11001325 (BGS 10)
11001327 (BGS 10)
11001328 (BGS 10)
11001329 (BGS 10)
Similar pattern goes on at least through 11001373 BGS 10
(Obvious patter, on to next list)

New additions to the 12/19/18 List from the OP
11014561 MTG 0.0
11014566 MTG 0.0
11014569 MTG 0.0
11014572 MTG 0.0
11014574 MTG 0.0
11014576 MTG 0.0
11014578 MTG 0.0
11014579 MTG 0.0
Almost every other card in this particular run is a black label or MTG 0.0

1/28/18
Actual graded MTG stuff in both directions, from the List in the OP

New additions to the 2/19/19 List of Joe’s Black labels from the OP
11142993 Black Label
11142994 Black Label
11142995 Black Label
All kinds of Yu-Gi-Oh cards among these submission 2/19/19 numbers

Interesting. I was mostly igoring the MTG cards when I was researching Joe's submissions, but are people thinking they are also illegitimately graded or authenticated, and that perhaps the grader(s) doing this are grouping these illegitimate MTG cards with Joe's submissions?

[TonySpaghetti]

Even with its flaws and subjectivity I've always been a fan and defender of grading.... But even I'm starting to get discouraged from the whole process now. This is just too significant and widespread to not be at least a little resentful of it all.

[Brobocop]

Originally Posted by TonySpaghetti

Even with its flaws and subjectivity I've always been a fan and defender of grading.... But even I'm starting to get discouraged from the whole process now. This is just too significant and widespread to not be at least a little resentful of it all.

That MTG Mox Pearl was even worse than I thought. I originally thought it was a rebacked original card. Nope. They took a Collector's Edition reprint card that is squared off and has a gold trim on the back, and rebacked it with a real card. Whoever graded that card had zero clue what they were doing. Honestly, this hobby is really starting to tear itself a part a bit. I'm at the point where I just want to liquidate whatever cards I have left and move on to something else. This is just ridiculous.

[Shadowsonic2004]

Originally Posted by no10pin

I watched this video this morning. I'm just going to point out one thing. I would love for Topps and the others use whomever the Japanese card makers use because their card conditions are very nice and tend to get a lot more black labels.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

That MTG Mox Pearl was even worse than I thought. I originally thought it was a rebacked original card. Nope. They took a Collector's Edition reprint card that is squared off and has a gold trim on the back, and rebacked it with a real card. Whoever graded that card had zero clue what they were doing. Honestly, this hobby is really starting to tear itself a part a bit. I'm at the point where I just want to liquidate whatever cards I have left and move on to something else. This is just ridiculous.

I hate to say this...but it’s not going to get any better over time as scammers get progressively better at their craft aided by their profits.

[palmetto7]

Originally Posted by TonySpaghetti

Even with its flaws and subjectivity I've always been a fan and defender of grading.... But even I'm starting to get discouraged from the whole process now. This is just too significant and widespread to not be at least a little resentful of it all.

I'm with you 100 percent. The only thing I feel comfortable buying is stuff put out within the last couple years ....UNGRADED.. and inexpensive. For example...I mainly collect Yankee players so buying ungraded Clint Frazier rookie cards are pretty dang safe. Also bought tons of Sanchez, Judge,Bird...yeah I know...Severino...Torres when the cards were first released and pretty darn cheap. My thoughts of getting into vintage Yankee stuff are gone....starting with late Mantle cards. The grading companies are a joke.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by palmetto7

I'm with you 100 percent. The only thing I feel comfortable buying is stuff put out within the last couple years ....UNGRADED.. and inexpensive. For example...I mainly collect Yankee players so buying ungraded Clint Frazier rookie cards are pretty dang safe. Also bought tons of Sanchez, Judge,Bird...yeah I know...Severino...Torres when the cards were first released and pretty darn cheap. My thoughts of getting into vintage Yankee stuff are gone....starting with late Mantle cards. The grading companies are a joke.

The big grading companies haven't really changed too much over time.

What's changed has been the increasing amount of money people started to pay for graded cards...when they really shouldn't have.

[Brobocop]

I've been thinking about this. I think if I continue in the hobby, I won't buy a card for a price that I'm willing to lose if the card is worthless. I have some cast signed posters that I got off eBay with BGS and photo proof, yet I still only spent as much money that if those autographs were fake, I could live with what I spent. I don't know if that makes sense lol.

I guess my point is, I would not look to graded cards as an investment. Who knows how far this rabbit hole goes or if it does anything to grading long term (my guess is that this blows over quicker than it should).

[palmetto7]

I know Ebay is the middleman in these auctions, but don't they have some responsibility to the buyer of an auction? Especially if fraudulent activity is involved?

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[KhalDrogo]

Finally was able to watch the MTG video. Holy crap. Only two options there.

1. Nobody at BGS knows what a Magic card is supposed to look like.
2. Someone at BGS belongs in jail for fraudulently slabbing those fakes.

[gradedeflator]

Can someone explain to me the issue with BgS slabbing that mox pearl in Rudy’s video?

I get the card was altered but didn’t the slab say altered? If so, that’s not deceiving, is it?

My point is BGs will slab a card if you pay. If the label isn’t misleading, I don’t see the problem.

Appreciate any help on what I’m missing. Thanks!