PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[corndog]

This altered card was found and received as a tip from Blowout member Bruins1993.

PSA Cert #28319709

1933 Goudey Babe Ruth #144

Value gain of $936.92

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-AUTHENTIC ALTERED on October 09, 2017 for $1,780.08. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1555538
Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-2.5 for $2,717.00 on April 10, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1637665

Yellow circles are print or fiber identifiers.
Red square identifies where a pencil mark was erased and color blended in to be not so white.

[duron]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

lololol.


PSA is clearly trolling us all.

I think the only way this example could get better was if his handlebar was trimmed on one side.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by corndog

This altered card was found and received as a tip from Blowout member Bruins1993.

PSA Cert #28319709

1933 Goudey Babe Ruth #144

Value gain of $1,174.92

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-AUTHENTIC ALTERED on October 09, 2017 for $1,780.08. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1555538
Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-2.5 for $2,955.00 on April 10, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1637665

Yellow circles are print or fiber identifiers.
Red square identifies where a pencil mark was erased and color blended in to be not so white.

Ok now this is really interesting.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the original pencil mark (as you noted) was erased, thus leaving white marks behind. I'd also be under the impression that the underlying ink was taken with it?

I'm looking at that area on the newly slabbed card, and the green field pattern doesn't look consistent with the rest of the card. If you look closely, the grass consistently doesn't look the same.

Does this mean the doctor improvised that area completely with inks, almost like completing an unfinished sketch? That's crazy.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Any other examples of this? It does not appear in the Marketplace Research either. So likely was not paid for. But it does appear when you download the Excel spreadsheet for 2017 Auction #2. Here is the auction link to the completed sale. If you try to access the original auction page through this link, it no longer exists, which indicates it wasn’t paid for.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=401284759217

Was able to find the bidding history link.

https://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/401284759217

Correct sale date is 3/12/2017 for that cert #:
https://www.psacard.com/cert/26675877
Scroll to the bottom for auction results.

[SetBuilder]

How didn't PSA catch that obvious erasure mark? There must've been a difference in gloss or texture in that area.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by duron

I think the only way this example could get better was if his handlebar was trimmed on one side.

An MJ Hanes era Hitler stache would have made it a true 1/1...none graded higher.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Ok now this is really interesting.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the original pencil mark (as you noted) was erased, thus leaving white marks behind. I'd also be under the impression that the underlying ink was taken with it?

I'm looking at that area on the newly slabbed card, and the green field pattern doesn't look consistent with the rest of the card. If you look closely, the grass consistently doesn't look the same.

Does this mean the doctor improvised that area completely with inks, almost like completing an unfinished sketch? That's crazy.

The green grass is colored like an Impressionist painting. It's a Babe Ruth/Claude Monet 1/1.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

Correct sale date is 3/12/2017 for that cert #:
https://www.psacard.com/cert/26675877
Scroll to the bottom for auction results.

So PSA reports the sale, but it doesn’t appear anywhere else it should if it were a paid auction?

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by superdan49

The green grass is colored like an Impressionist painting. It's a Babe Ruth/Claude Monet 1/1.

Again..how in the blue h-e-double-hockey-sticks did this get past a PSA employee?


We Stevie Wonder now, boys?

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

So PSA reports the sale, but it doesn’t appear anywhere else it should if it were a paid auction?

My guess is PSA compiles their data soon after an eBay auction goes from active to sold, regardless if the item is ever paid for or not.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by superdan49

My guess is PSA compiles their data soon after an eBay auction goes from active to sold, regardless if the item is ever paid for or not.

But there are a number of examples from the other thread of unpaid items where the card doesn’t show up in the PSA sales. Could just be bad technology.

[T206Collector]

Has anyone else read this month’s SMR “Taking my Hacks” by Joe Orlando.

https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...-retrospective



I think he’s targeting the good folks on BO. A few of my favorite quotes:

“Their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable. There are realities and limitations to what any third-party service can do.”

“Grading is not conducted in a science lab. It is simply humans looking at collectibles.”

“I don’t agree with every card, autograph, or bat grade issued ... and that’s OK.”

“The train left the station a long time ago. You can choose to get on board and take the ride, which can occasionally get bumpy along the way....”

Doesn’t exactly instill confidence in the product. How do you sign off on these statements with “Never get cheated”???

[Bruins1993]

I don't know the dynamics of VCP and PSA polling their data (and/or updating again for accuracy). It appears VCP might be sooner than PSA since I see a lot of items on VCP that I DO NOT find on PSA Auction Prices page showing as "unpaid" (not visible) on the eBay Market Price Research tool.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Has anyone else read this month’s SMR “Taking my Hacks” by Joe Orlando. I think he’s targeting the good folks on BO. A few of my favorite quotes:

“Their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable. There are realities and limitations to what any third-party service can do.”

“Grading is not conducted in a science lab. It is simply humans looking at collectibles.”

“I don’t agree with every card, autograph, or bat grade issued ... and that’s OK.”

“The train left the station a long time ago. You can choose to get on board and take the ride, which can occasionally get bumpy along the way....”

Doesn’t exactly instill confidence in the product. How do you sign off on these statements with “Never get cheated”???

Full text below:

Today, I'm the president and CEO of PSA's parent company and I don't agree with every card, autograph or bat grade issued ... and that's OK. As a collector, I don't have to. Why? Because I don't have to buy it. We have choices, which is part of what makes collecting so much fun. As an individual, I am entitled to an opinion too and it's OK if my personal standard differs from a third-party service. Their job isn't to confirm my opinion; it's to render their own.

Like most other industries, ours contains a fraction of people who choose to do nothing more than complain about how third-party systems are imperfect, instead of offering feasible or logical ways of making it better. Their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable. There are realities and limitations to what any third-party service can do.

If it were up to them, there would be no umpires in baseball either, because these men don't get every ball and strike call correct. Card and coin graders, like umpires, must make decisions repeatedly in a relatively short period of time. They do the best job they can, but like all people, they are not perfect. They can only judge what they see in front of them and interpret what their eyes are observing. Grading is not conducted in a science lab. It is simply humans looking at collectibles.

The train left the station a long time ago. You can choose to get on board and take the ride, which can occasionally get bumpy along the way, or get left behind with delusions that somehow returning to the Wild West of the 1980s is better than what collectors have today. If you prefer to collect raw cards, that's OK. There are many ways to enjoy our wonderful hobby.

In the meantime, the beat goes on. After 20 years at the company and a lifetime in this hobby, there are a few things I know. There will always be challenges that our hobby will have to face and, unfortunately, there will also be those who choose to spread fear and ignorance. For those of us who love the hobby, there will always be opportunities to improve it by engaging in civil discourse.

More importantly, third-party authentication and grading is here to stay. It makes the hobby better, even though no system will ever be perfect.

Never get cheated,

You cannot make this stuff up. PSA touting the virtues of civil discourse? The company with whom communication is impossible?

[KhalDrogo]

Their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable. There are realities and limitations to what any third-party service can do.

Thank God PSA will reimburse defrauded collectors when those “unattainable” expectations are not met.

The PSA Financial Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity
The PSA Financial Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity (“Guarantee”) is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. Subject to the exceptions noted below, the Guarantee ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card.

PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA’s authenticity standards, PSA will either:

Buy the card from the submitter at the current market value if the card can no longer receive a numerical grade under PSA's standards or,

Refund the difference in value between the original PSA grade and the current PSA grade if the grade is lowered. In this case, the card will also be returned to the customer along with the refund for the difference in value.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Thank God PSA will reimburse defrauded collectors when those “unattainable” expectations are not met.

Or tell them the graders stand behind the grade.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Has anyone else read this month’s SMR “Taking my Hacks” by Joe Orlando. I think he’s targeting the good folks on BO. A few of my favorite quotes:

“Their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable. There are realities and limitations to what any third-party service can do.”

“Grading is not conducted in a science lab. It is simply humans looking at collectibles.”

“I don’t agree with every card, autograph, or bat grade issued ... and that’s OK.”

“The train left the station a long time ago. You can choose to get on board and take the ride, which can occasionally get bumpy along the way....”

Doesn’t exactly instill confidence in the product. How do you sign off on these statements with “Never get cheated”???

Full text below:

Today, I'm the president and CEO of PSA's parent company and I don't agree with every card, autograph or bat grade issued ... and that's OK. As a collector, I don't have to. Why? Because I don't have to buy it. We have choices, which is part of what makes collecting so much fun. As an individual, I am entitled to an opinion too and it's OK if my personal standard differs from a third-party service. Their job isn't to confirm my opinion; it's to render their own.

Like most other industries, ours contains a fraction of people who choose to do nothing more than complain about how third-party systems are imperfect, instead of offering feasible or logical ways of making it better. Their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable. There are realities and limitations to what any third-party service can do.

If it were up to them, there would be no umpires in baseball either, because these men don't get every ball and strike call correct. Card and coin graders, like umpires, must make decisions repeatedly in a relatively short period of time. They do the best job they can, but like all people, they are not perfect. They can only judge what they see in front of them and interpret what their eyes are observing. Grading is not conducted in a science lab. It is simply humans looking at collectibles.

The train left the station a long time ago. You can choose to get on board and take the ride, which can occasionally get bumpy along the way, or get left behind with delusions that somehow returning to the Wild West of the 1980s is better than what collectors have today. If you prefer to collect raw cards, that's OK. There are many ways to enjoy our wonderful hobby.

In the meantime, the beat goes on. After 20 years at the company and a lifetime in this hobby, there are a few things I know. There will always be challenges that our hobby will have to face and, unfortunately, there will also be those who choose to spread fear and ignorance. For those of us who love the hobby, there will always be opportunities to improve it by engaging in civil discourse.

More importantly, third-party authentication and grading is here to stay. It makes the hobby better, even though no system will ever be perfect.

Never get cheated,

Reads like satire.

[ken161]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Has anyone else read this month’s SMR “Taking my Hacks” by Joe Orlando. I think he’s targeting the good folks on BO. A few of my favorite quotes:

“Their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable. There are realities and limitations to what any third-party service can do.”

“Grading is not conducted in a science lab. It is simply humans looking at collectibles.”

“I don’t agree with every card, autograph, or bat grade issued ... and that’s OK.”

“The train left the station a long time ago. You can choose to get on board and take the ride, which can occasionally get bumpy along the way....”

Doesn’t exactly instill confidence in the product. How do you sign off on these statements with “Never get cheated”???

Joe's latest tweet is crowing about "records, records, and more records." I thought initially he might be referring to the record number of doctored cards exposed. Alas no, Joe is referring to the record prices paid for slabbed cards at auction, including a $40 card that someone forked over $3000+ for because it was in a PSA9 slab.




https://twitter.com/JoeOrlandoPSA?re...psacard.com%2F

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Has anyone else read this month’s SMR “Taking my Hacks” by Joe Orlando. I think he’s targeting the good folks on BO. A few of my favorite quotes:



“Their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable. There are realities and limitations to what any third-party service can do.”



“Grading is not conducted in a science lab. It is simply humans looking at collectibles.”



“I don’t agree with every card, autograph, or bat grade issued ... and that’s OK.”



“The train left the station a long time ago. You can choose to get on board and take the ride, which can occasionally get bumpy along the way....”



Doesn’t exactly instill confidence in the product. How do you sign off on these statements with “Never get cheated”???



Full text below:



Today, I'm the president and CEO of PSA's parent company and I don't agree with every card, autograph or bat grade issued ... and that's OK. As a collector, I don't have to. Why? Because I don't have to buy it. We have choices, which is part of what makes collecting so much fun. As an individual, I am entitled to an opinion too and it's OK if my personal standard differs from a third-party service. Their job isn't to confirm my opinion; it's to render their own.



Like most other industries, ours contains a fraction of people who choose to do nothing more than complain about how third-party systems are imperfect, instead of offering feasible or logical ways of making it better. Their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable. There are realities and limitations to what any third-party service can do.



If it were up to them, there would be no umpires in baseball either, because these men don't get every ball and strike call correct. Card and coin graders, like umpires, must make decisions repeatedly in a relatively short period of time. They do the best job they can, but like all people, they are not perfect. They can only judge what they see in front of them and interpret what their eyes are observing. Grading is not conducted in a science lab. It is simply humans looking at collectibles.



The train left the station a long time ago. You can choose to get on board and take the ride, which can occasionally get bumpy along the way, or get left behind with delusions that somehow returning to the Wild West of the 1980s is better than what collectors have today. If you prefer to collect raw cards, that's OK. There are many ways to enjoy our wonderful hobby.



In the meantime, the beat goes on. After 20 years at the company and a lifetime in this hobby, there are a few things I know. There will always be challenges that our hobby will have to face and, unfortunately, there will also be those who choose to spread fear and ignorance. For those of us who love the hobby, there will always be opportunities to improve it by engaging in civil discourse.



More importantly, third-party authentication and grading is here to stay. It makes the hobby better, even though no system will ever be perfect.



Never get cheated,

He’s right. He admits grading is fallible.

However “Never get cheated” makes absolutely zero sense in context with his comments...so I assume their buyback guarantee remains.

On the soap box again: Paying premiums for high graded cards is dumb unless you’re self-interested and trying to create or hype a market.

[ninjacookies]

Seems like a reasonable and confident response by the President of a respectable company with respectable standards.

'We're not perfect, and that's OK.'

'People expect a superb product...but the world isn't always superb.'

'We're just like any other company with the FEDS and thousands of people concerned about exorbitant levels of negligence and possible fraudulent activity. That's perfectly normal in the consumer business world.'

'Everybody's complaining, but nobody's offering real world solutions that can improve the situation. I mean why would we depend on 21st century technological advancements such as computer imaging and AI like the rest of the world. 3rd world is where it's at. Subjective measurements and slabbed, re-colored surfaces 4 lyfe. It's here to stay. Reasonable people will deal with it.'

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Seems like a reasonable and confident response by the President of a respectable company with respectable standards.

'We're not perfect, and that's OK.'

'People expect a superb product...but the world isn't always superb.'

'We're just like any other company with the FEDS and thousands of people concerned about exorbitant levels of negligence and possible fraudulent activity. That's perfectly normal in the consumer business world.'

'Everybody's complaining, but nobody's offering real world solutions that can improve the situation. I mean why would we depend on 21st century technological advancements such as computer imaging and AI like the rest of the world. 3rd world is where it's at. Subjective measurements and slabbed, re-colored surfaces 4 lyfe. It's here to stay. Reasonable people will deal with it.'

The president is properly setting expectations, he’s doing so clearly.

But the market CLEARLY expects something that can never be delivered by anyone.

Let me type that again:
The market CLEARLY expects something that can never be delivered by anyone.

Shall I type it again?

The problem isn’t with the grading companies, it’s with expectations.

The expectations of BUYERS needs to change. PSA doesn’t have to change.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

The president is properly setting expectations, he’s doing so clearly.

But the market CLEARLY expects something that can never be delivered by anyone.

Let me type that again:
The market CLEARLY expects something that can never be delivered by anyone.

Shall I type it again?

The problem isn’t with the grading companies, it’s with expectations.

The expectations of BUYERS needs to change. PSA doesn’t have to change.

I agree to a certain extent that the people need to shift their expectations and, more importantly, where they direct their money.


But I also think it's a bit naive to say problems don't lie with the grading companies themselves. You have a large demographic of the card population that probably don't even know about what's transpired lately. They spend their hard earned money and send cards into these companies with the expectation that they can properly authenticate and assess the cards without bias.
They've been operating like this for decades because...they can.

Restaurants aren't able to operate in the united states without being subjected to random inspections/audits. Grading companies shouldn't be any different. They need to be held accountable by some kind of independent party to ensure stuff like this doesn't continue...or at least not to this magnitude. There's a huge inherent conflict of interest in this entire landscape.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

I agree to a certain extent that the people need to shift their expectations and, more importantly, where they direct their money.


But I also think it's a bit naive to say problems don't lie with the grading companies themselves. You have a large demographic of the card population that probably don't even know about what's transpired lately. They spend their hard earned money and send cards into these companies with the expectation that they can properly authenticate and assess the cards without bias.
They've been operating like this for decades because...they can.

Restaurants aren't able to operate in the united states without being subjected to random inspections/audits. Grading companies shouldn't be any different. They need to be held accountable by some kind of independent party to ensure stuff like this doesn't continue...or at least not to this magnitude. There's a huge inherent conflict of interest in this entire landscape.

I definitely hear you and I love continuous improvement myself. Everyone expects a perfect grading company.

You'd like to try to change how grading companies operate. But again, why should they change?

The issue is almost entirely on the people that buy slabs. There's a demand for a perfect system that would make everyone rich. Many will pretend such a system already DOES exist. But in reality it doesn't, you and I know this. And as Joe says, it can't. This is what people need to understand and expect. Once they do, slabs will come down in price to more realistic levels.

There's really no arguing this. Expectations.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Has anyone else read this month’s SMR “Taking my Hacks” by Joe Orlando.

"If it were up to them, there would be no umpires in baseball either, because these men don't get every ball and strike call correct. Card and coin graders, like umpires, must make decisions repeatedly in a relatively short period of time. They do the best job they can, but like all people, they are not perfect. They can only judge what they see in front of them and interpret what their eyes are observing. Grading is not conducted in a science lab. It is simply humans looking at collectibles."

I don't go with the analogy above from Joe O. and I sure hope graders are not making decisions as fast as umpires!

What tools are PSA graders using to examine cards?

Reminder on what PSA is charging to grade: https://www.psacard.com/fees/

[bear0555]

Joe is trying to say that PSA charges up to $5000 to grade your card, but it's okay if they don't want to put in the work to properly assess the cards. If they'd actually do the work the guys here are doing, we wouldn't have these problems. The collectors' expectations would be attainable if PSA wants to provide the best service they can.