2023 Upper Deck Marvel Masterpieces - Dan dos Santos

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by PurplesaurusRex

I probably sound like a broken record at this point. You have fantastic original art and name brand recognition. This is the set to promote, to get into as many peoples hands as possible! They should printing these at the same level as Fleer Ultra Avengers with blaster boxes for retail. No one is going to care about all these parallels 10 years from now. They're wasting a huge opportunity here to draw more collectors in.

I totally agree. I just assume UD is focused primarily on short-term concerns like making a steady profit and keeping the lights on. They are a small company now -- not like they were in their heyday in the 90s. But if they were to formulate a long-term strategy, using MM as a way to grow the market and promote their other Marvel offerings would be smart.

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Like you said, MM has become upscaled and targeted to a very select market. The prices of '22 MM cards on eBay make no sense to me. Why are they way more than '16 MM? Is it just FOMO from buyers with large budgets? Honestly, if I'm Upper Deck, I'd raise prices even more. Paying $900 for a hobby box of MM is already ridiculous and it hasn't deterred certain buyers. If there is a segment of dumb money willing to pay any price, jack up the prices. It's too late to increase the print run and serve a larger share of the market. Might as well squeeze the remaining big fish.

You're right, hate to say it but if boxes are going for $900 at retail, I dont see why UD doesnt raise the cost (which was only $300 I believe) even more. It would probably just eat into the dealer/retailer profits somewhat rather than raising the market value even more, say over $1000. Even if it did push the box price over 1000, as you said there is a craze out there and people probably still pay it.

As for why 2022MM is at or above 2016MM in some singles prices (tier 4 base and what if, for example), I agree because the new hot factor. Also gotta keep in mind a lot of people have what they already intended to collect with 2016MM already (be it a purple tier 4 set, battle spectrum set, rainbow of a character, whatever). So they are not actively searching out and buying that stuff, and are eliminated from the demand. Whereas with 2022MM being new, people are still scrambling to get what they need for sets or specific characters. The high price of singles is also a relic of high wax prices. While it doesnt make total sense (a /199 purple is a /199 purple no matter which modern MM set or what the price of the box was)- it's just how it is. There is a built in connection between wax prices and singles prices (sellers who open a box at 900 want to recoup some of that money so price singles higher. Buyer reason for a hot card price $750..."well, it's still less than the price of one box, so I'll buy it).

I have to give credit to DDS's great artwork as well, obviously a contributing factor to the hotness of the new set. But prices in highend marvel cards like this are less related to the actual art on the card than one might think (PMGs which went for tens of thousands had rehashed art...in some cases bad selections of rehashed art). Basically what is contributing to value the most is the checklist of boxes going through a buyer's mind: it's the new Masterpieces set, it's parallel Y, it's character X.

[DynaEtch]

I also agree about as time goes on, parallels of MM's after 2016MM will get lost in the sea and decrease in value. Especially if UD keeps repeating the same formula (epic purple, orange, what if, etc) every single MM set for 10+ more years.

There's gonna be zillions of epic purples, colorful battle spectrum parallels, legendary oranges from like 12 different MM sets.....it just becomes a sea. I think for holding value, the ones to do so more will be the simple things: Tier 4 base, tier 4 what if, battle spectrum gems /99's...stuff like that shouldnt be quite as volatile. This is why I have begun to thin out my modern MM stuff that is not basic stuff like that.

2016 is, and will always be, different. It's the first of the new model, it's Jusko, and also was the beginning of Marvel on epack. With Joe Jusko starting MM off in 92, starting it off again in 2016 (breathing life into it after a lackluster 2007-2008 era), he's basically Mr. Marvel Masterpieces. 2016MM should in theory be the most valuable of the new MM sets, and I think in the long run, this will prove to be the case. What also made 2016 special compared to now it didnt start off being this super high valued thing. Yes boxes were like $160 or whatever, yes people loved the art off the bat....but if you look back at price of singles back then, they werent that high. People, typical collectors on this site, were opening boxes left and right. Jusko Silver Spectrum autos went for like $100-300. Tier 4s base for like $100-150, What if tier 4 maybe $200. Only later did prices skyrocket for all of this.

So 2016MM started off somewhat under the radar and affordable even though higher end, and years later went up in price a lot (boxes now go for up to $2000, key singles can be in the thousands), to where it's considered a legendary set. This sounds a lot like an organic progression. 2022MM, on the other hand, is starting off at those crazy prices out of the gate...and that is somewhat of a flag.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

You're right, hate to say it but if boxes are going for $900 at retail, I dont see why UD doesnt raise the cost (which was only $300 I believe) even more. It would probably just eat into the dealer/retailer profits somewhat rather than raising the market value even more, say over $1000. Even if it did push the box price over 1000, as you said there is a craze out there and people probably still pay it.

As for why 2022MM is at or above 2016MM in some singles prices (tier 4 base and what if, for example), I agree because the new hot factor. Also gotta keep in mind a lot of people have what they already intended to collect with 2016MM already (be it a purple tier 4 set, battle spectrum set, rainbow of a character, whatever). So they are not actively searching out and buying that stuff, and are eliminated from the demand. Whereas with 2022MM being new, people are still scrambling to get what they need for sets or specific characters. The high price of singles is also a relic of high wax prices. While it doesnt make total sense (a /199 purple is a /199 purple no matter which modern MM set or what the price of the box was)- it's just how it is. There is a built in connection between wax prices and singles prices (sellers who open a box at 900 want to recoup some of that money so price singles higher. Buyer reason for a hot card price $750..."well, it's still less than the price of one box, so I'll buy it).

I have to give credit to DDS's great artwork as well, obviously a contributing factor to the hotness of the new set. But prices in highend marvel cards like this are less related to the actual art on the card than one might think (PMGs which went for tens of thousands had rehashed art...in some cases bad selections of rehashed art). Basically what is contributing to value the most is the checklist of boxes going through a buyer's mind: it's the new Masterpieces set, it's parallel Y, it's character X.

All makes sense, Dyna. I'm assuming the ones who are buying up '22 MM cards are part of the Marvel Masterpieces Facebook group that others have mentioned from time to time.

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

All makes sense, Dyna. I'm assuming the ones who are buying up '22 MM cards are part of the Marvel Masterpieces Facebook group that others have mentioned from time to time.

This seems to be the case. Which I guess makes sense since people in that group are among the most marvel-focused collectors, whereas a place like BO, although there is surely an overlapping between the two, is a more wider nonsports collecting base, and general nonsports collectors arent putting down $900 for a box of this (hence almost nothing in the box break section). There were a few breaks posted ITT but that was about it.

This product is almost exclusively targeted towards the Marvel card facebook crowd...and while Im sure they have plenty of members, that's still a narrow focus, and missing a big part of the wider card hobby. In 2016, which I think was before those groups, you had people all around partaking in MM16- lots of sports people opening boxes too- doesnt seem to be the case with MM22. This is what is meant by exclusivity.

[exotechktx]

Ironically enough, I have all of you to blame for having jumped into MM22, not the FB groups! I ~only~ frequented BO because of my interest in 90s era cards and steadfastly ignored 07-09, 16, 18, and 20 despite loving MM. It was this thread specifically that broke me haha!!!

As for the grievances, I wholeheartedly agree. If not for dispensable income from poker (which is how I typically fund my 90s era collecting), I wouldn't stomach the price point at all - part of my aversion to modern collecting WAS the steep price points for set completionists...but I think across the spread of the entire set, Dan's art is consistently good to awe inspiring, and really reminded me of the feelings I had as a kid looking at 95 and 96.

I don't know what UD has in store moving forward logistically, but it certainly feels like the fatigue has mostly set in for MM22...I don't see many boxes being ripped anymore and everyone is waiting for ePack with the hopes that the price point is lower than what it has been...We are definitely being tested and pushed towards the line where the product won't move...how much further can they push it?

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by exotechktx

Ironically enough, I have all of you to blame for having jumped into MM22, not the FB groups! I ~only~ frequented BO because of my interest in 90s era cards and steadfastly ignored 07-09, 16, 18, and 20 despite loving MM. It was this thread specifically that broke me haha!!!

As for the grievances, I wholeheartedly agree. If not for dispensable income from poker (which is how I typically fund my 90s era collecting), I wouldn't stomach the price point at all - part of my aversion to modern collecting WAS the steep price points for set completionists...but I think across the spread of the entire set, Dan's art is consistently good to awe inspiring, and really reminded me of the feelings I had as a kid looking at 95 and 96.

I don't know what UD has in store moving forward logistically, but it certainly feels like the fatigue has mostly set in for MM22...I don't see many boxes being ripped anymore and everyone is waiting for ePack with the hopes that the price point is lower than what it has been...We are definitely being tested and pushed towards the line where the product won't move...how much further can they push it?

I have also noticed that Red Spectrum and Red Amber 1/1's have all but stopped being reported in the 1/1 tracking thread. This to me signifies little product is being opened right now. I think you're right about people waiting for epack now....and I actually hope epack waits until like Feb next year, since I need to build up funds first!

As for being around....I got back into marvel cards around 2011, so I did happen to be around for the MM16 release, but unfortunately only bought a box or two at the time (wish I bought more!) and had to pick up most of my set down the road years after that buying up singles. I can say one thing, the build up and hoopla around MM22 was much more than MM16 (content channels, facebook groups, this stuff wasnt around for MM16). While a wider audience was buying up MM16, the actual mainly-marvel collectors and community associated around marvel cards has no doubt increased a lot since MM16, particularly with a lot coming into the hobby around the pandemic.

[MMguy]

Regarding parallels and inserts, the next set should have something vastly different. I really only like the canvas and holofoils, sometimes the "Battle" cards feel like there's too much happening.

The borders on the cards should go away too, I get it, the 2016 set was supposed to mimic the 1992 set which had borders, but after 4 sets of borders...just stop. The 2018 borders are the worst. I prefer the "Marvel" stamp from the '94 - '96 sets.

[glorbgorb]

There's a certain "formula" for MM that can change, but it has to be a little at a time. If you change a lot, then it is only MM in name, if that makes sense.

And parallels? Yeah, they're not going anywhere. Slap a new foil color on the same base card art and you immediately have the license to print more cards, boxes, and cases.

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by MMguy

Regarding parallels and inserts, the next set should have something vastly different. I really only like the canvas and holofoils, sometimes the "Battle" cards feel like there's too much happening.

The borders on the cards should go away too, I get it, the 2016 set was supposed to mimic the 1992 set which had borders, but after 4 sets of borders...just stop. The 2018 borders are the worst. I prefer the "Marvel" stamp from the '94 - '96 sets.

I largely agree, although as glorb said the parallels arent going anywhere. Im not a fan of the borders, but I guess they need them for the parallel colors.

I've been vocal about how much I wish MM would change it up for at least one set, even do a Dare to Compare rehash for the 95 set like MM16 was for Jusko's 92. Getting those same 95 artists would be even more awesome. I get the point above about needing to keep the 'MM-ness' in it....but the stellar painted art (from usually a small number or single artist), combined with the branding, is MM-ness for me. As long as the set has that, I think it can retain MM-ness while going a different route....each and every 90s MM set was vastly different and didnt share the same inserts or parallels, yet they all have a similar MM-vibe.

I do not think the Battle Spectras for modern MM sets were ever able to match the magic of the 92 battle spectras. I know part of it is comparing to the classic Jusko 92 art for those battle scenes, but I think there is more to it: it's the technology of the cards...it's not quite the same as those 92 spectra etches. The ones in 92 had certain parts no-foil, certain parts strategically made with etched foil (such as Surfers' beam, Cap's shield, or Thing's body). Modern spectras, on the other hand, seem more like a lazy generic foiling covering the whole background. And speaking of backgrounds, the modern ones arent nearly immersive in environments like the 92s were. They are usually general solid color backgrounds or very little detail, like the characters are fighting in vacuum. With the exception of the Wolvie vs Sabretooth, the 92 environments were integral to the art and feel of the battle.

[DynaEtch]

Oh and one more aspect of what MM-ness is, that I forgot above. Mentioned was the stellar painted art (for all cards in the set, not just base like Fleer Ultra's, Retro, Flair, etc), and branding.

The thing I forgot is: covering the whole spectrum of the Marvel universe, from X-men to Avengers to Spiderman and his villains, to Guardians, etc. This sets it apart from many of the 'team' specific sets like FUSM, FUXM, FUA, etc. If you go back to the 90s, I always said you could basically take any of those fleer ultra sets (1994, 1995 Fleer Ultra X-men, 1995 Fleer Ultra Spiderman, 1996 Fleer Ultra x-men wolverine), change the logo on it to MM, and it's basically a Masterpieces set with its painted art. Why it couldnt really be a Masterpieces set is because the sets only cover a narrow portion of the universe, like X-men. Also some minor other things like battle cards within the base set which MM does not have, and a lot of artists on one set, which MM usually doesnt have. But the main thing is the narrow focus. MM's is broad.

[MMguy]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

I largely agree, although as glorb said the parallels arent going anywhere. Im not a fan of the borders, but I guess they need them for the parallel colors.

I've been vocal about how much I wish MM would change it up for at least one set, even do a Dare to Compare rehash for the 95 set like MM16 was for Jusko's 92. Getting those same 95 artists would be even more awesome. I get the point above about needing to keep the 'MM-ness' in it....but the stellar painted art (from usually a small number or single artist), combined with the branding, is MM-ness for me. As long as the set has that, I think it can retain MM-ness while going a different route....each and every 90s MM set was vastly different and didnt share the same inserts or parallels, yet they all have a similar MM-vibe.

I do not think the Battle Spectras for modern MM sets were ever able to match the magic of the 92 battle spectras. I know part of it is comparing to the classic Jusko 92 art for those battle scenes, but I think there is more to it: it's the technology of the cards...it's not quite the same as those 92 spectra etches. The ones in 92 had certain parts no-foil, certain parts strategically made with etched foil (such as Surfers' beam, Cap's shield, or Thing's body). Modern spectras, on the other hand, seem more like a lazy generic foiling covering the whole background. And speaking of backgrounds, the modern ones arent nearly immersive in environments like the 92s were. They are usually general solid color backgrounds or very little detail, like the characters are fighting in vacuum. With the exception of the Wolvie vs Sabretooth, the 92 environments were integral to the art and feel of the battle.

The parallel colors could be addressed via the stamp from the older sets, even with the nameplate/stamp as well. I feel like the borders distract from some of the art on the cards.

Well said regarding the battle cards.

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by MMguy

The parallel colors could be addressed via the stamp from the older sets, even with the nameplate/stamp as well. I feel like the borders distract from some of the art on the cards.

Brings up an interesting point. How small can the parallel-differentiator be, and people will still give similar level of weight to the parallels? Like what if it was just the M logo in a different color. 95MM actually did this...the little M in the corner is a different color (not a parallel though, just color coded by artist). But what if that was the 'parallel'....would people still be as interested, or do they need a more full border to get immersed in the parallel concept. I suppose one response to this is it literally doesnt matter what the differentiator (or color for that matter) is....it's just the fact that it's X parallel with Y print run that matters to the market.

I've heard people for these new MM sets say stuff like 'that Deadpool really pops in purple', etc. Since the color band gives the card a distinct impression. It's harder to imagine that being said for just an M logo being colored.

But heck I agree with you....go minimalistic and ditch the ribbons. I suppose I should be happy that UD is at least retaining full-bleed with the bands and not making it an actual border (that would be terrible and dont want to give UD ideas). But yea less is more. Or like you said even do a nameband a la' 93MM (which were also different colored).

[BobCollects]

Boxes are on "sale" for $799.95 at a Blowout competitor.

I remember thinking this would be an instant sellout everywhere upon release but I think retailers got greedy and priced boxes too high. Now the question is how low prices will go.

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by BobCollects

Boxes are on "sale" for $799.95 at a Blowout competitor.

I remember thinking this would be an instant sellout everywhere upon release but I think retailers got greedy and priced boxes too high. Now the question is how low prices will go.

Box prices have been surprisingly stable in the 700-900 range. Auctions on ebay are ending at around 800. I dont see it going much lower than this. Epack price will be the wild card though, gotta see how that pans out.

Box did reach 1000 at some big retailers very briefly, but that was more a transient thing, most of the time they have been 800-900.

[DynaEtch]

A side note, but finally completed the tier 4 base set. It was probably dumb to chase these before ePack, since being /99 it’s high enough that they won’t be in danger of drying up, and with epack prices will come down a bit…..but it is what it is. The hardest one to track down surprisingly was the Dr Strange.

[TimBuckTwo]

Sad thing for this release is that once prices go up they do not come down.

[Bunny Hop]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

Brings up an interesting point. How small can the parallel-differentiator be, and people will still give similar level of weight to the parallels?

I don't know if they're given similar weight (or any weight at all) but the semi-recent Art of TMNT set handled parallels like this. It's also not totally dissimilar to how parallels are handled in Topps Stadium Club baseball, I think, and that has a solid audience.

[Watchmee]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

I wonder if it’s the same as this book? Looks the same just title is different for some reason. I can confirm the below has a lot of the 96MM set.

Looks like there is even French version of the same book just w Wolverine on the front

[PurplesaurusRex]

Originally Posted by BobCollects

Boxes are on "sale" for $799.95 at a Blowout competitor.

I remember thinking this would be an instant sellout everywhere upon release but I think retailers got greedy and priced boxes too high. Now the question is how low prices will go.

That's $67 a pack, or $23 per card. I'm tempted but still think it's too high. If epack ends up being $60 a pack then I'll probably buy some.

[PurplesaurusRex]

Originally Posted by Bunny Hop

I don't know if they're given similar weight (or any weight at all) but the semi-recent Art of TMNT set handled parallels like this. It's also not totally dissimilar to how parallels are handled in Topps Stadium Club baseball, I think, and that has a solid audience.

Another set with fantastic art, but this "premium" card stock is such a scam. Does anyone really want a single card the size of a bricked 90's pack?

[Bunny Hop]

Originally Posted by PurplesaurusRex

Another set with fantastic art, but this "premium" card stock is such a scam. Does anyone really want a single card the size of a bricked 90's pack?

Agreed on the card size. Enjoying the set is a logistical pain in the shell.

[MMguy]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

A side note, but finally completed the tier 4 base set. It was probably dumb to chase these before ePack, since being /99 it’s high enough that they won’t be in danger of drying up, and with epack prices will come down a bit…..but it is what it is. The hardest one to track down surprisingly was the Dr Strange.

So f@#$ing jealous...

You really want all out and got a "True" Tier 4 set...

I go the "Epic Purple" route; Thanos was just delivered, I'm only missing Doctor Strange, Professor X and Emma Frost.

[MMguy]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

Brings up an interesting point. How small can the parallel-differentiator be, and people will still give similar level of weight to the parallels? Like what if it was just the M logo in a different color. 95MM actually did this...the little M in the corner is a different color (not a parallel though, just color coded by artist). But what if that was the 'parallel'....would people still be as interested, or do they need a more full border to get immersed in the parallel concept. I suppose one response to this is it literally doesnt matter what the differentiator (or color for that matter) is....it's just the fact that it's X parallel with Y print run that matters to the market.

I've heard people for these new MM sets say stuff like 'that Deadpool really pops in purple', etc. Since the color band gives the card a distinct impression. It's harder to imagine that being said for just an M logo being colored.

But heck I agree with you....go minimalistic and ditch the ribbons. I suppose I should be happy that UD is at least retaining full-bleed with the bands and not making it an actual border (that would be terrible and dont want to give UD ideas). But yea less is more. Or like you said even do a nameband a la' 93MM (which were also different colored).

I looked at some of my 2016 Epic Purple cards and I can see what they mean, the purple on the Deadpool card does seem to make the card "pop".

Regardless, UD should ditch the ribbons/borders after 4 sets of this, change it up, keep the MM-ness to it by commissioning an artist (or 2) but have the art speak for itself, some of the gimmicks are getting old.

And make a larger base set, make 150 base cards, that would be f'ing wild.

[hychang5]

Price fatigue. People weren't going to be ripping this at $1000-$900 constantly. Seeing that price has dropped even more now to sub $800 pisses me off even more that my local card shop dropped these boxes at $1000 per box plus tax when they obviously got it much lower but waited to see what the big retailers were selling at before they revealed their price.

I know it's not legally collusion or price fixing but it felt pretty nasty.