Read today that Negro League will be merged with MLB stats….

[jmarascojr]

Oooooooooo I'd love to see Pete Rose go nuts if they counted Ichiro's hits from the other side of the ocean....

As a Cobb fan, the only part of this that I "don't like" is Gibson being put first in career average over Cobb...

[JRX]

Originally Posted by jmarascojr

Oooooooooo I'd love to see Pete Rose go nuts if they counted Ichiro's hits from the other side of the ocean....

As a Cobb fan, the only part of this that I "don't like" is Gibson being put first in career average over Cobb...

I don't see any reason why NPB stats shouldn't be included. Its effectively professional baseball records, not mlb records.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by JRX

I don't see any reason why NPB stats shouldn't be included. Its effectively professional baseball records, not mlb records.

Do minor league stats count as professional baseball records? What about the Arizona Fall League?

[JRX]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

Do minor league stats count as professional baseball records? What about the Arizona Fall League?

Why not? Nobody is arguing that segregation was good, but to say stats from a league that never played the other leagues now counts as their records is just irrational. I'll also point out that mlb is happy to do this knowing it will get people riled up so they fight amongst each other and ignore things they don't do like make games available over the air so kids can watch them or make tickets cheaper so they can go to games or play all day games on holidays.

[BAHoopla]

Originally Posted by JRX

Why not? Nobody is arguing that segregation was good, but to say stats from a league that never played the other leagues now counts as their records is just irrational. I'll also point out that mlb is happy to do this knowing it will get people riled up so they fight amongst each other and ignore things they don't do like make games available over the air so kids can watch them or make tickets cheaper so they can go to games or play all day games on holidays.

You mean like how the NL has a home run champ, the AL has a HR Champ, the Federal league has a HR Champ, the Negro league has a HR Champ and MLB has a HR Champ

[mfw13]

The problem with non-counting stats, especially those that include ballpark effects, is that it's almost impossible to go back and retroactively collect & calculate said data. In this case, we have NO IDEA what was normal for the ballparks that the Negro League played in.

Same thing will ALL 20th century defensive data, since most games were NOT televised and you have no idea where the ball was hit in relationship to fielders.

And it also should be noted that Negro League seasons were much shorter than MLB season, making fatigue much less of a factor.

So with regards to a catcher like Josh Gibson, we have no idea how his stats would have been affected by catching 150 games a season instead of 50.

[ottobord]

Looking at the updated MLB stats now,

Turkey Stearns 3837 AB's , struck out 5 times, 130 SB attempts caught once.

Are we to take these stats seriously?

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by JRX

Why not? Nobody is arguing that segregation was good, but to say stats from a league that never played the other leagues now counts as their records is just irrational. I'll also point out that mlb is happy to do this knowing it will get people riled up so they fight amongst each other and ignore things they don't do like make games available over the air so kids can watch them or make tickets cheaper so they can go to games or play all day games on holidays.

I actually agree with you on not including these stats unless we then include all NPB, AFL, and minor league stats as career stats for each player. There are way too many variables with the only 75% of available negro league stats that are now included. I would much rather see separate stats much like we see with minor league, major league, and post season.

[sportzluvr1]

Originally Posted by ottobord

Looking at the updated MLB stats now,

Turkey Stearns 3837 AB's , struck out 5 times, 130 SB attempts caught once.

Are we to take these stats seriously?

Turkey the GOAT

[jayjones82]

I'll just chime in to say that they're completely different entities: The Negro League had shorter rosters, shorter seasons, the field sizes could vary more dramatically than their major league counterparts, and the stats weren't as carefully curated/protected. For those reasons, I think they should stay separate.

[EBCollectibles]

Originally Posted by 80s Kid

Babe Ruth never faced Nolan Ryan.

Negro League seasons weren't long enough for any of the players to get enough counting stats to take over records.

MLB players played MLB players.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by jayjones82

I'll just chime in to say that they're completely different entities: The Negro League had shorter rosters, shorter seasons, the field sizes could vary more dramatically than their major league counterparts, and the stats weren't as carefully curated/protected. For those reasons, I think they should stay separate.

The silly part is anyone doing any actual data analysis on these stats will separate them out. This is all just silly. It doesn't make up for the racism of the past. Regardless of what revisionist history games they want to play they weren't part of major league baseball so their stats shouldn't be folded in with the rest of major league baseball. Put an asterisk next to all of them and say the were done pre integration if you want, but to pretend now that they're all the same is just dumb.

[SleepyWill]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

If true, what do you think about it? I think it’s a huge, unnecessary, ridiculous nightmare for us as Collectors!
Leave History alone!

Wow, first of all there's a lot of deep rooted <insert multiple phrases here> found within just your first couple of comments. Lost a lot of respect for you.

As a collector, I don't see how this impacts my collecting habits, strategy, or the reasons why I love the hobby. Hopefully this provides depth, stories, and icons to the sport moving forward, again not really seeing any negatives here.

[SleepyWill]

Some general information on this for anyone who cares to know.

https://www.mlb.com/news/faq-negro-l...-league-record

[JRX]

Originally Posted by SleepyWill

Wow, first of all there's a lot of deep rooted <insert multiple phrases here> found within just your first couple of comments. Lost a lot of respect for you.

As a collector, I don't see how this impacts my collecting habits, strategy, or the reasons why I love the hobby. Hopefully this provides depth, stories, and icons to the sport moving forward, again not really seeing any negatives here.

Nothing changes what anyone did. Also, pretty much everyone that played back then is dead so all this will do is lead to a lot of stupid internet posts based on bad data analysis.

[jplarson]

Originally Posted by SleepyWill

Some general information on this for anyone who cares to know.

https://www.mlb.com/news/faq-negro-l...-league-record

Good link, thank you for sharing it.

[Triple B]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

So you think Josh Gibson could’ve put up a nearly 1.500 OPS in MLB? Or had a .372 career average? It’d be similar to Larry Bird averaging 60 PPG playing against only white players.

Baseball pre war was full of players that were mediocre to bad. There were no bullpens or pitch counts. Ty Cobb was hitting off of pitchers who got no rest or were forced workhorses. Asking if Josh Gibson could do anything in a fantasy situation is lame only because he was forced to play in a league made up for black players because of segregation.

Throwing it back, how many MLB players in that era would never have sniffed the majors if black players were allowed to play? MLB diluted their own product.

[ThatGuyPal]

KKKardsin1905

[gmarutiak]

Serious question: I've always read that Josh Gibson might have had over 900 career homeruns. Why isn't this reflected in a project that took three years to complete?

[JRX]

Originally Posted by gmarutiak

Serious question: I've always read that Josh Gibson might have had over 900 career homeruns. Why isn't this reflected in a project that took three years to complete?

That's in the FAQ that was posted, most of his home runs were from barnstorming.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by gmarutiak

Serious question: I've always read that Josh Gibson might have had over 900 career homeruns. Why isn't this reflected in a project that took three years to complete?

They are counting just "official negro league" stats

When they say Josh Gibson has around 900 career homeruns they are talking about his international play which he did a ton of in Cuba, DR and Mexico and they are also talking about all his league jumping he did, because he did A LOT of it.

[asujbl]

You baseball boys are wild

[awz50]

Originally Posted by JRX

That's in the FAQ that was posted, most of his home runs were from barnstorming.

Barnstorming, international play, league jumping and then of course his negro league play. Its a lot of things added together

[awz50]

Originally Posted by asujbl

You baseball boys are wild

Baseball history is so rooted in stats and other milestones that people get bent out of shape when these things look slightly different then they did before

[Stifle]

If the NFL adopts the stats for the 80’s USFL, Herschel Walkers 2411 yards in 85 looks nearly invincible. John Corker and his sack total in 83, etc. Look out record holders, change is coming ? ?