Roger Maris HOF

[f2tornado]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

Strawberry had a 40 WAR before he turned 30. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

Coke or no coke, it's when his back went to hell. The same age Maris wrecked his hand. Also about the same age Mattingly's back went to shat. Likewise with Trout starting to fall apart, granted he put up such massive numbers his ticket is punched. Bummer seeing this type of talent ruined by the injury bug.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by Drew3000

Lmfao. Congrats on making the stupidest post of the day

WAR doesn’t matter but pitcher wins does? Bet you’re also really into saves

War doesn’t matter but a cy young award does? A voted on, bias award

Schilling is awesome for calling out HOF voters.

Not to nitpick, but the Hall of Fame is a voted on, bias award.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by sauceboy

On the topic of Maris, he shouldn't be in. It's not just his WAR that is low. You'd have to start making a lot of exceptions if he was voted in.

Why would have to start making exceptions? There are more than a dozen players with lower career WAR than Maris already in the Hall of Fame. Voting a player in doesn't suddenly mean a bunch of players get in now. But with Maris, sure, let's say they immediately inducted anyone with a season of 61 or more HRs or every player with 2 MVPs gets in. That would not diminish the statistical quality of the Hall of Fame one iota.

[sauceboy]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Why would have to start making exceptions? There are more than a dozen players with lower career WAR than Maris already in the Hall of Fame. Voting a player in doesn't suddenly mean a bunch of players get in now. But with Maris, sure, let's say they immediately inducted anyone with a season of 61 or more HRs or every player with 2 MVPs gets in. That would not diminish the statistical quality of the Hall of Fame one iota.

Maris' only objectively "great" seasons were 1960 and 1961. From a statistical standpoint, every other year he played was completely unremarkable. Are you implying you'd give anyone the nod for the HOF if they were able to win at least two MVPs and hit 60+ home runs at least one season? That's not a Hall of Fame I want to see.

I love Judge and think he's well on his way to a HOF-worthy career, but that'd mean he could completely fall apart for the remainder of his time in the majors and still be an automatic lock for the Hall.

[Drew3000]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Not to nitpick, but the Hall of Fame is a voted on, bias award.

Sadly. It’s why I’m not a big HOF guy like so many. Lot of others reasons too. I have a list of who I think are the greats and that’s who I try to collect. I’m not gonna let some writer try to sell me on High Pockets Kelly being a legend

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by sauceboy

Maris' only objectively "great" seasons were 1960 and 1961. From a statistical standpoint, every other year he played was completely unremarkable. Are you implying you'd give anyone the nod for the HOF if they were able to win at least two MVPs and hit 60+ home runs at least one season? That's not a Hall of Fame I want to see.

I love Judge and think he's well on his way to a HOF-worthy career, but that'd mean he could completely fall apart for the remainder of his time in the majors and still be an automatic lock for the Hall.

You can say Maris had only two great seasons, but he still had them. They don't just get erased. He did those things. He went to 7 World Series. The seasons outside of the two you are referencing, were still very good. Aside from 1958, every season he played ended up with an OPS+ above 100 and he had 7 above 120. It's not like he had two great seasons and the rest of the time he was a bum.

Also, I'm not implying anything. I think I was pretty explicit. Inducting every 2x MVP with at least one 60+ HR season would not diminish the Hall of Fame in the least.

And Judge will be a Hall of Famer, the second he plays his first game this season, (his 10th).

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Why would have to start making exceptions? There are more than a dozen players with lower career WAR than Maris already in the Hall of Fame.

And that's how you end up with the bar for HOF election getting lower and lower....

Oh hey....Harold Baines got elected.....now let's elect everyone else who had a career WAR in the same ballpark as Baines.....

[49ersSF]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Why would have to start making exceptions? There are more than a dozen players with lower career WAR than Maris already in the Hall of Fame.

There is also nearly 500+ players with a WAR higher than Maris not in the HoF.

[pspa123]

He's not getting in. Get over it.
Neither is Doc Gooden, who has a better case.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by mfw13

And that's how you end up with the bar for HOF election getting lower and lower....

Oh hey....Harold Baines got elected.....now let's elect everyone else who had a career WAR in the same ballpark as Baines.....

You know that's not what I meant. Roger Maris is not Harold Baines. He is Hack Wilson. And no one ever says Hack doesn't deserve to be there.

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

There is also nearly 500+ players with a WAR higher than Maris not in the HoF.

So what? It is not the Hall of WAR. And if it were, Big Daddy would be in the Hall.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

You know that's not what I meant. Roger Maris is not Harold Baines. He is Hack Wilson. And no one ever says Hack doesn't deserve to be there.

That statement perfectly illustrates the problem with comparing players as a means of determining who is HOF-worthy....you're always going to be able to find a player A to compare player B to that will make player B seem like a HOFer.

And with more and more borderline candidates getting elected, the bar keeps getting lower and lower.

Baines made it possible to justify Dave Parker.....Parker is going to make it possible to justify another group of borderline players....etc. etc.

[discostu]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

You know that's not what I meant. Roger Maris is not Harold Baines. He is Hack Wilson. And no one ever says Hack doesn't deserve to be there.
...

The fact that Hack Wilson became a Major Leaguer with the feet of a 9 year old is impressive. With Chiclets for feet, Wilson led the NL in home runs 4 times.

That said, Maris is a notch below Hack Wilson...and Maris never played for Jerry Reinsdorf. Baines, a great player, is in because of Reinsdorf.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by mfw13

That statement perfectly illustrates the problem with comparing players as a means of determining who is HOF-worthy....you're always going to be able to find a player A to compare player B to that will make player B seem like a HOFer.

And with more and more borderline candidates getting elected, the bar keeps getting lower and lower.

Baines made it possible to justify Dave Parker.....Parker is going to make it possible to justify another group of borderline players....etc. etc.

Baines did not justify Dave Parker. Baines is in because he should be in.

At the time of his retirement, Baines was 28th All-Time in Total Bases. Every player in the top 40 at that time is a Hall of Famer. Baines also had 2,866 Hits. Every player with 2,800 at the time of Baines' retirement is in the Hall of Fame. Baines had 1,628 RBIs which were good for 21st All-Time when he retired in 2001. The 20 players above him are all Hall of Famers. In fact, the 19 players below him are all Hall of Famers except for Barry Bonds. As Bonds (and Ripken) was not yet HOF eligible at the time of Baines’ retirement, every eligible player in the top 40 of RBIs at the time was enshrined. There simply was no precedent for keeping a player out of the Hall of Fame with that many Runs Batted In.

If we want to talk about Hall of Famers who lowered the bar of the Hall, it wasn't Harold Baines. There are at least 20 players worse than Harold Baines in the Hall. People like to bring him up because he has a low WAR. WAR ain't infallible.

[DioBrando]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Baines did not justify Dave Parker. Baines is in because he should be in.

At the time of his retirement, Baines was 28th All-Time in Total Bases. Every player in the top 40 at that time is a Hall of Famer. Baines also had 2,866 Hits. Every player with 2,800 at the time of Baines' retirement is in the Hall of Fame. Baines had 1,628 RBIs which were good for 21st All-Time when he retired in 2001. The 20 players above him are all Hall of Famers. In fact, the 19 players below him are all Hall of Famers except for Barry Bonds. As Bonds (and Ripken) was not yet HOF eligible at the time of Baines’ retirement, every eligible player in the top 40 of RBIs at the time was enshrined. There simply was no precedent for keeping a player out of the Hall of Fame with that many Runs Batted In.

If we want to talk about Hall of Famers who lowered the bar of the Hall, it wasn't Harold Baines. There are at least 20 players worse than Harold Baines in the Hall. People like to bring him up because he has a low WAR. WAR ain't infallible.

Before he got put in, no one was saying Baines should be in the hof. Hell, I'd say most people had forgotten about harold Baines by then.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by DioBrando

Before he got put in, no one was saying Baines should be in the hof. Hell, I'd say most people had forgotten about harold Baines by then.

Actually, this isn't true. I'm not saying there was some groundswell of support or public outcry, but Baines stayed on the ballot 5 years. You don't do that without some people saying he should be in.

And I'm not saying he's a slam-dunk. I'm saying the people who constantly bring him up as some sort of black mark on Hall of Fame standards are being lazy.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by DioBrando

Before he got put in, no one was saying Baines should be in the hof. Hell, I'd say most people had forgotten about harold Baines by then.

Exactly.....when it was announced that Baines had been elected, everyone thought it was a joke....

He lowered the bar for election quite a bit....

[ThoseBackPages]

back before the internet when we used to wait for the SPORTS FINAL to read the newspaper so we could check the box scores from the night before..... i cannot recall
ever checking to see how Harold Baines did the night before.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Baines did not justify Dave Parker. Baines is in because he should be in.

At the time of his retirement, Baines was 28th All-Time in Total Bases. Every player in the top 40 at that time is a Hall of Famer. Baines also had 2,866 Hits. Every player with 2,800 at the time of Baines' retirement is in the Hall of Fame. Baines had 1,628 RBIs which were good for 21st All-Time when he retired in 2001. The 20 players above him are all Hall of Famers. In fact, the 19 players below him are all Hall of Famers except for Barry Bonds. As Bonds (and Ripken) was not yet HOF eligible at the time of Baines’ retirement, every eligible player in the top 40 of RBIs at the time was enshrined. There simply was no precedent for keeping a player out of the Hall of Fame with that many Runs Batted In.

If we want to talk about Hall of Famers who lowered the bar of the Hall, it wasn't Harold Baines. There are at least 20 players worse than Harold Baines in the Hall. People like to bring him up because he has a low WAR. WAR ain't infallible.

So accumulating 2,800 hits and 1,600 RBI automatically makes a player a Hall of Famer? Baines was a primary DH during his career -- 60% of his PAs were at DH. This is the reason why he was able to accumulate such high counting stats.

He was also subpar against LHP during his career -- .722 OPS vs LHP.

He never finished higher than 10th place in MVP voting -- 0.31 MVP shares (673rd all-time)

He didn't win a ring.

The only black ink he has is leading the league in slugging percentage in 1984.

Many other non-Hall of Famers are more noteworthy than Baines.

[fabiani12333]

Roger Maris vs Jose Bautista:

Maris:
Career bWAR: 38.3
Seasons with 6-or-more bWAR: 2
MVP shares: 1.40 (191st)
AS selections: 7
Black ink: 8

Bautista:
Career bWAR: 36.7
Seasons with 6-or-more bWAR: 3
MVP shares: 1.50 (170th)
AS selections: 6
Black ink: 11

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Roger Maris vs Jose Bautista:

Maris:
Career bWAR: 38.3
Seasons with 6-or-more bWAR: 2
MVP shares: 1.40 (191st)
AS selections: 7
Black ink: 8

Bautista:
Career bWAR: 36.7
Seasons with 6-or-more bWAR: 3
MVP shares: 1.50 (170th)
AS selections: 6
Black ink: 11

Roger Maris vs. Jose Bautista:

Maris:

Years holding one of the most significant records in the sport: 37 (fixed typo)

Bautista:

Years holding any record of significance: 0


You see, when discussing a hall of fame, some things are more important than a random stat like "seasons with 6 or more bWAR."

You are spinning your wheels if you are just looking for ways to compare players by picking a list of stats. You've already lost your way.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Roger Maris vs. Jose Bautista:

Maris:

Years holding one of the most significant records in the sport: 57

Bautista:

Years holding any record of significance: 0


You see, when discussing a hall of fame, some things are more important than a random stat like "seasons with 6 or more bWAR."

You are spinning your wheels if you are just looking for ways to compare players by picking a list of stats. You've already lost your way.

61 isn't the record anymore. If you want to dismiss Bonds, McGwire and Sosa, Judge still has 62.

And Maris didn't actually break the 154-game HR record set by Ruth -- he had 59 home runs after game 154.

Let's really dumb this down for the old farts:

Maris: 275 HR, .822 OPS, 850 RBI, 1,325 hits

Bautista: 344 HR, .836 OPS, 975 RBI, 1,496 hits

Bautista led the league in home runs twice -- Maris only once.

[fabiani12333]

Hack Wilson is still the all-time single-season RBI leader -- Maris is 8th all-time in single-season HRs.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

So accumulating 2,800 hits and 1,600 RBI automatically makes a player a Hall of Famer? Baines was a primary DH during his career -- 60% of his PAs were at DH. This is the reason why he was able to accumulate such high counting stats.

He was also subpar against LHP during his career -- .722 OPS vs LHP.

He never finished higher than 10th place in MVP voting -- 0.31 MVP shares (673rd all-time)

He didn't win a ring.

The only black ink he has is leading the league in slugging percentage in 1984.

Many other non-Hall of Famers are more noteworthy than Baines.

Yes. Every player with 2,800 Hits and 1,600 RBIs is in the Hall of Fame except Pujols and Miggy (who aren’t yet eligible), and Barry Bonds, Rafael Palmeiro, and ARod (who aren’t in for a different reason).

Baines had numbers that get you into the Hall of Fame if you didn’t take PEDs. He is not close to the worst HOFer and you know that. Instead you want to cherry pick stats. Baines had plenty going for him and he got injured. Winning a ring isn’t a HOF requirement. He’s probably the 3rd greatest DH in history. He is one of only 7 players to have his number retired while still active. The other 6 are Robin Roberts, Frank Robinson, Willie Mays, Harmon Killebrew, Phil Niekro, and Nolan Ryan.

There are more qualities of a Hall of Famer than their OPS against LHP and black ink.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by mfw13

And that's how you end up with the bar for HOF election getting lower and lower....

Oh hey....Harold Baines got elected.....now let's elect everyone else who had a career WAR in the same ballpark as Baines.....

Harold Baines getting elected to the Hall of Fame didn't lower the bar. You still had Tommy McCarthy, Rick Ferrell, Rube Marquard, High Pockets Kelly, Freddie Lindstrom, Jesse Haines, Ray Schalk, Chick Hafey and Ross Youngs as members of the Hall of Fame.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

There is also nearly 500+ players with a WAR higher than Maris not in the HoF.

Again, WAR doesn't matter.