What’s going on with TAG?

[rfgilles]

Some news from TAG

https://taggrading.com/blogs/news/new-era-tag-update

Not a fan of the value pricing being bumped from $15 to $20. In general pricing seems high.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Some news from TAG

https://taggrading.com/blogs/news/new-era-tag-update

Not a fan of the value pricing being bumped from $15 to $20. In general pricing seems high.

SGC for vintage is probably the only thing that makes sense these days with $15 and 15 day turnaround time. That will be $20 soon as well I think. CGC is decently priced, but 65 day turnaround times is insane for a company that can't compete against PSA.

The vending machines and mystery packs are killing the hobby for most of us. People are grading to shove crap into slabs, so they can rip people off. I hate it when people say we should kiss the butts of mystery pack sellers because they buy cards and keep the market strong. It is a false market and I think this is what will eventually kill the hobby in a few years. Grading to sell cards is almost impossible these days unless you want to be a shady repacker.

The only company I am using right now is SGC, but I won't be if they also increase prices to $20. Every Pokémon card show I go to has more and more slabs. One year ago, 100% if dealers had the majority of their cards in binders to go through. Now I am starting to see Pokémon dealers with no binders and just slabs.

[YeahBuddy]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

SGC for vintage is probably the only thing that makes sense these days with $15 and 15 day turnaround time. That will be $20 soon as well I think. CGC is decently priced, but 65 day turnaround times is insane for a company that can't compete against PSA.

The vending machines and mystery packs are killing the hobby for most of us. People are grading to shove crap into slabs, so they can rip people off. I hate it when people say we should kiss the butts of mystery pack sellers because they buy cards and keep the market strong. It is a false market and I think this is what will eventually kill the hobby in a few years. Grading to sell cards is almost impossible these days unless you want to be a shady repacker.

The only company I am using right now is SGC, but I won't be if they also increase prices to $20. Every Pokémon card show I go to has more and more slabs. One year ago, 100% if dealers had the majority of their cards in binders to go through. Now I am starting to see Pokémon dealers with no binders and just slabs.

Only took me 28 days on my economy just now fyi (in regards to your cgc comment)

also code NEWFAV for 25% off grading .... may be for new accounts only tho idk

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by YeahBuddy

Only took me 28 days on my economy just now fyi (in regards to your cgc comment)

also code NEWFAV for 25% off grading .... may be for new accounts only tho idk

Not for new accounts, I tested it. CGC is about to get destroyed with submissions.

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Some news from TAG

https://taggrading.com/blogs/news/new-era-tag-update

Not a fan of the value pricing being bumped from $15 to $20. In general pricing seems high.

It also says 45+ business days. All the grading companies are slammed. Everything is 3 months. Discodanman may be right, it is all these vending machine companies popping up and getting a ton of cheap inventory slabbed up. Pokemon boom isn't abating yet either.

Discdanman - CGC at 65 business days is crazy indeed. And that will increase with their special. 65 business days from today is November 12. Add in two weeks for CGC to "check in" your package before the timer starts, plus Thanksgiving. If i dropped off a package tomorrow at the post office, I wouldn't expect it back until December. If they get a big deluge, it may take an extra 2-3 weeks to check in and you are looking at past the holdiays. That will not help them steal SGC customers from PSA. Wait longer and get less money on the slab. The price to grade is better. So I guess, PC items that you can live with being going for 5 months it is worth it.

[pumpkinescobar]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Some news from TAG

https://taggrading.com/blogs/news/new-era-tag-update

Not a fan of the value pricing being bumped from $15 to $20. In general pricing seems high.

Strong initial negative reaction to the announcement on the Discord. The long awaited update was a price increase with a note about Chinese Pokemon coming shortly and Yu-Gi-Oh being expected by the end of the year.

I've always been interested in TAG's results, which is why I post their weekly numbers here, but I'm really happy I don't grade anymore. Top loader binders all day for me.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by pumpkinescobar

Strong initial negative reaction to the announcement on the Discord. The long awaited update was a price increase with a note about Chinese Pokemon coming shortly and Yu-Gi-Oh being expected by the end of the year.

I've always been interested in TAG's results, which is why I post their weekly numbers here, but I'm really happy I don't grade anymore. Top loader binders all day for me.

I paid $15 for what is effectively TAG S, and now that is $60. Hard to stomach that.

[The_Reverend]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

I paid $15 for what is effectively TAG S, and now that is $60. Hard to stomach that.

Now that price is crazy! Per the CGC comment, they are indeed backed up. I don’t use bulk so that does not apply to me. I go with economy or standard and with the discount that is a good price. I just sent a 3 card express and wish this 25% discount would have hit August 1, had it been for TCG as well. Cards arrived 08/04 and went into grading on yesterday. I am expecting them to pop by tomorrow, being as they have a 5 day TAT. Paying the $85 for express was great, especially since 2 of them were Seismitoad (purchased at average of $70 (3) and sold one for $225)

Sending them express with the discount would be around $62 per card for 5 day TAT. That price is very good.

[auburn35]

Not sure if these have been already discussed, but thought it was worth sharing.

Seems both the human and machine graders need to be updated. Can't even replicate the same set year or card number, but the main issue is these are not legacy or Masterpiece 1/1 parallels.

[pumpkinescobar]

Last week TAG graded 8,419 cards. This is down from 16,498 the week before.

[pumpkinescobar]

I've been traveling for work, but August (33,409) had a drop-off compared to July (49,196). Last week TAG graded 6,386 cards, down from 8,296 the week before.

[88horsepower]

TAG raising their prices was a mistake. If they want to be competitive, they shouldn't be matching PSA for their lowest price point at $20 a card.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by 88horsepower

TAG raising their prices was a mistake. If they want to be competitive, they shouldn't be matching PSA for their lowest price point at $20 a card.

Yeah, I don't think that was the right move.

[88horsepower]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Yeah, I don't think that was the right move.

CGC is the one company that could really challenge for some market share. They have kept their prices competitive and last month showed a significant increase in submissions received.

[pumpkinescobar]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Yeah, I don't think that was the right move.

I agree with you both on this. I think September and October submission numbers will be telling as to how the market is receiving the price increase news. I think most of August would have still been under the old, lower pricing structure.

[inaka]

Originally Posted by pumpkinescobar

I agree with you both on this. I think September and October submission numbers will be telling as to how the market is receiving the price increase news. I think most of August would have still been under the old, lower pricing structure.

But if submission numbers drop, TAG could just bump up the production for re-packs, and make it look like they're thriving. Basing actual demand on the gemrate numbers can be extremely misleading in the age of third-party re-pack partnerships.

[The_Reverend]

Originally Posted by inaka

But if submission numbers drop, TAG could just bump up the production for re-packs, and make it look like they're thriving. Basing actual demand on the gemrate numbers can be extremely misleading in the age of third-party re-pack partnerships.

Re-pack products for all companies are misleading in their real submission numbers. Even without the re-pack products, PSA and CGC would still have strong numbers. Without re-pack products, TAG would be doing GEM grading numbers. They are not being well received by the overall hobby. Great looking slabs, but people don’t buy them.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by inaka

But if submission numbers drop, TAG could just bump up the production for re-packs, and make it look like they're thriving. Basing actual demand on the gemrate numbers can be extremely misleading in the age of third-party re-pack partnerships.

You think they are going to go through all that trouble to bump up their pop report numbers?

The companies grade the cards and put them in the POP report. End of story.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by The_Reverend

Re-pack products for all companies are misleading in their real submission numbers. Even without the re-pack products, PSA and CGC would still have strong numbers. Without re-pack products, TAG would be doing GEM grading numbers. They are not being well received by the overall hobby. Great looking slabs, but people don’t buy them.

What percentage of TAG graded cards are repack products?

[inaka]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

You think they are going to go through all that trouble to bump up their pop report numbers?

Uhhhh yeah.
And what do you mean by "all that trouble"? It's business/marketing.

They sign a deal with a re-packer for higher volume orders on sub $5 cards like Topps Now overstock, and the repacker gets a cheaper grading cost per card. The repacker has product (aka gambling product) and the grading company gets paid and higher volume numbers. It's a win/win, albeit a false reality where collectors aren't actually pushing those higher pop counts, repacks are.

The same way people buy fake instagram followers. If actual sales and organic submissions are stagnant or declining, and the general public is not buying the slabs to their desired volume, the general public views gemrate numbers as a sign of the health of a grading company. This is especially important for the smaller fringe grading companies like TAG where perceived higher volume numbers are extremely important to project the perception of growth. Perception is reality in grading. If it's perceived that people are no longer submitting to smaller companies, then customers don't want the value of their cards to decline so they will instead submit to a more viable grading company. Increased pop numbers negate that, even if they aren't real collector's submitting those cards for grading.

So of course these companies would "go through all that trouble."

[pumpkinescobar]

Originally Posted by inaka

But if submission numbers drop, TAG could just bump up the production for re-packs, and make it look like they're thriving. Basing actual demand on the gemrate numbers can be extremely misleading in the age of third-party re-pack partnerships.

I don't disagree that they could do that, but I would think they would have been doing that the entire time to show consistent month over month increases to the POP report.

Also, if they were looking to do something like that as a marketing ploy, why raise the prices on everyone? Wouldn't lower pricing have accomplished the same thing to draw in a large increase of submissions by people who are actually interested in TAG's products?

[inaka]

Originally Posted by pumpkinescobar

I don't disagree that they could do that, but I would think they would have been doing that the entire time to show consistent month over month increases to the POP report.

Also, if they were looking to do something like that as a marketing ploy, why raise the prices on everyone? Wouldn't lower pricing have accomplished the same thing to draw in a large increase of submissions by people who are actually interested in TAG's products?

These companies have already been doing that. CGC does it with the "Gems of the Game" mystery packs to deceptively booster their pop standing in Sports card grading, and TAG is doing it with the "Poke Collect" mystery packs for TCG. heck Arena Club cut out the repacker model altogether and just made the repacks themselves with pure unregulated gambling on their own web site.

As for raising pricing, this actually kind of proves my point. The same way PSA already has enough volume that they don't need to offer collectors club specials. PSA doesn't make as much money on individually graded cards with numerous orders of 5 or 10 cards, vs. the scale of cranking out bulk orders to a Gamestop. Similarly, for repacker order, TAG would make way more profit via scale even at less of a grading fee per card with a 1000+ card order all shipping to the Poke Collect repacker who will never have the same individual customer service requests as individual, and the repackers just need any "mystery" product leveraging the TAG name for their Poke Collect boxes. So individual pricing can go up because that's not where the money is anyway for these smaller grading companies.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by inaka

Uhhhh yeah.
And what do you mean by "all that trouble"? It's business/marketing.

They sign a deal with a re-packer for higher volume orders on sub $5 cards like Topps Now overstock, and the repacker gets a cheaper grading cost per card. The repacker has product (aka gambling product) and the grading company gets paid and higher volume numbers. It's a win/win, albeit a false reality where collectors aren't actually pushing those higher pop counts, repacks are.

The same way people buy fake instagram followers. If actual sales and organic submissions are stagnant or declining, and the general public is not buying the slabs to their desired volume, the general public views gemrate numbers as a sign of the health of a grading company. This is especially important for the smaller fringe grading companies like TAG where perceived higher volume numbers are extremely important to project the perception of growth. Perception is reality in grading. If it's perceived that people are no longer submitting to smaller companies, then customers don't want the value of their cards to decline so they will instead submit to a more viable grading company. Increased pop numbers negate that, even if they aren't real collector's submitting those cards for grading.

So of course these companies would "go through all that trouble."

They get paid for grading cards. You think maybe just maybe they work with repackagers at your hypothetical $5 as a means to produce revenue? The pop report is a function of that, but it isn't the driver.

"Hey guys, our POP reports are low, anybody know of any repackagers out there we can find so the 300 people who read Gem Rate will be impressed?"

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by inaka

These companies have already been doing that. CGC does it with the "Gems of the Game" mystery packs to deceptively booster their pop standing in Sports card grading, and TAG is doing it with the "Poke Collect" mystery packs for TCG. heck Arena Club cut out the repacker model altogether and just made the repacks themselves with pure unregulated gambling on their own web site.

As for raising pricing, this actually kind of proves my point. The same way PSA already has enough volume that they don't need to offer collectors club specials. PSA doesn't make as much money on individually graded cards with numerous orders of 5 or 10 cards, vs. the scale of cranking out bulk orders to a Gamestop. Similarly, for repacker order, TAG would make way more profit via scale even at less of a grading fee per card with a 1000+ card order all shipping to the Poke Collect repacker who will never have the same individual customer service requests as individual, and the repackers just need any "mystery" product leveraging the TAG name for their Poke Collect boxes. So individual pricing can go up because that's not where the money is anyway for these smaller grading companies.

That is how they make money, you know by actually grading cards......

A card graded for a collector is no different than a card graded for a repacker.

[inaka]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

A card graded for a collector is no different than a card graded for a repacker.

Absolutely incorrect.

C’mon man, I know you’re shilling as per your signature, but if the general public loses interest and stops grading cards with TAG, and TAG is only supplying a single repacker, then the TAG card no longer becomes the prize wanted by the public and instead it becomes the zonk. Not to mention when any company puts all their eggs into one repacker basket, that repacker has more leverage to severly damage TAG if the repacker goes out of business, selects a different vendor, and/or demands lower costs.

Much like diversifying one’s portfolio is wise, you want multiple customers having actual legitimate demand for your product. Not one repacker influencing pop reports for products used for gambling, and creating misleading pop reports. The end user is the person who gets stuck with the slab. If they aren’t selling, then that’s a key indicator of actual demand.

Apples and oranges.