Your 2025 AL MVP will be....?

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

Right, we've been over this, nobody wants to talk defense. Also, it's unusual I'm sure to see emphasis on the position someone plays, it's relevant here because specifically with catcher it's still very hard to quantify value for things catchers do. I'm not a narrative guy, but how do you value handling a pitching staff, being a plus defender which unlike an infielder or outfielder the metrics still don't tell us the full story of their value. It's not a knock on Judge, but it's a very real argument to make for Cal.

I believe I discussed this part a little here or in one of the many other threads. How much credit does he get for the pitching staff being 11th in the MLB in ERA and 12th in batting average verse the pitchers getting the credit for still having to execute the pitches he calls; if he's the one calling them. I don't know because with the Yankees I believe they allow Fried to call his pitches and not the catcher. How much discredit does he get when the pitchers have a bad game? Again is it on his pitch calling or they didn't execute properly. I believe it's too difficult to ever know the value of handling a pitching staff.

Then bring pitch framing into this. Thankfully, this should be dead within a year or two thanks to ABS.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

It's not that wild. "Noteworthy" is a relative measure. Judge is having an amazing season. Raleigh is having a historic season. History matters in baseball. The Hank Aaron award was created so that the stat winner can get something in case someone else does something more significant. Which Raleigh has accomplished this year.

Isn’t Joe Bag O’Donuts on the edge of his seat to watch someone break the OBPS record?

[jraarmy]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

It's not that wild. "Noteworthy" is a relative measure. Judge is having an amazing season. Raleigh is having a historic season. History matters in baseball. The Hank Aaron award was created so that the stat winner can get something in case someone else does something more significant. Which Raleigh has accomplished this year.

Well said.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

Especially if he doesn't win and they disappoint in the playoffs again this year.

I mean, you can't win the World Series all 60 times you made the playoffs.

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

I believe I discussed this part a little here or in one of the many other threads. How much credit does he get for the pitching staff being 11th in the MLB in ERA and 12th in batting average verse the pitchers getting the credit for still having to execute the pitches he calls; if he's the one calling them. I don't know because with the Yankees I believe they allow Fried to call his pitches and not the catcher. How much discredit does he get when the pitchers have a bad game? Again is it on his pitch calling or they didn't execute properly. I believe it's too difficult to ever know the value of handling a pitching staff.

Then bring pitch framing into this. Thankfully, this should be dead within a year or two thanks to ABS.

I see where you're going with your first paragraph, as for your next sentence, pitch framing will still be a thing, just not as much. Teams only get so many challenges. Regardless, there is surplus value in pitch framing that Cal brings to his team, that's extremely valuable and as mentioned before, Baseball reference's WAR doesn't put that into it's calculations (fangraphs does).

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

It's not that wild. "Noteworthy" is a relative measure. Judge is having an amazing season. Raleigh is having a historic season. History matters in baseball. The Hank Aaron award was created so that the stat winner can get something in case someone else does something more significant. Which Raleigh has accomplished this year.

The writers threw this thinking out the window when Judge had an historic season in 2017 by breaking the rookie home run record.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

I see where you're going with your first paragraph, as for your next sentence, pitch framing will still be a thing, just not as much. Teams only get so many challenges. Regardless, there is surplus value in pitch framing that Cal brings to his team, that's extremely valuable and as mentioned before, Baseball reference's WAR doesn't put that into it's calculations (fangraphs does).

That's only next season. I can see full ABS being implemented within a year or two after that. It's really dumb not to implement it fully now. I think fabinini probably has it correct in that they will do the challenge system for the entertainment of the new generation of fans to see that challenge and the graphics put up on the board. I've seen full ABS in the Atlantic League and it does not change my exoperience at all. I'm actually glad 99% of calls are called correctly and umpires have zero impact the game by determining every pitch based on their feelings.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

The writers threw this thinking out the window when Judge had an historic season in 2017 by breaking the rookie home run record.

If Fanatics had taught me anything, it’s that’s there are historic accomplishments every day!
Topps Now: first player with two walks, a bloop hit, an error and thrown out at first on a strikeout! Look for relics!

[dantheman514]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

It's not that wild. "Noteworthy" is a relative measure. Judge is having an amazing season. Raleigh is having a historic season. History matters in baseball. The Hank Aaron award was created so that the stat winner can get something in case someone else does something more significant. Which Raleigh has accomplished this year.

I have been in this camp for a couple weeks now, and I feel like Cal really sealed it on Sunday Night Baseball hitting #58 on national TV. I am a Yankees fan, but history and narrative matters when it comes to MVP. We have seen seasons like Judge has had, but we have never seen anything like what Cal has done.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

And if Raleigh played half his games in that little league field, he'd probably have 75 HRs this year. Seattle is the worst park in baseball for hitters.

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

Lol, fake news.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leade...t-park-factors

And yes, that tracks that Raleigh would hit more HRs away. Especially if some of those were in NY.

Baseball Savant literally provides you with an estimate of how many home runs a player would have hit in a given ball park during a given year:

Yankee Stadium:
Raleigh: 48 HR
Judge: 49 HR

T-Mobile Park:
Raleigh: 56 HR
Judge: 52 HR

[SaveMeTheGum]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

The writers threw this thinking out the window when Judge had an historic season in 2017 by breaking the rookie home run record.

If he hit 60 that year, he would have gotten MVP.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by dantheman514

I have been in this camp for a couple weeks now, and I feel like Cal really sealed it on Sunday Night Baseball hitting #58 on national TV. I am a Yankees fan, but history and narrative matters when it comes to MVP. We have seen seasons like Judge has had, but we have never seen anything like what Cal has done.

You mean the home run he hit with his team already up 5-0, increasing his team's chances of winning by a whopping 6%?

[RainCityShecks]

Plain and simple it’s a toss up fellas. Both have made great cases for themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Americards]

Judge 121 walks 34 Intentional (in 10 less games)
Raleigh 95 walks 16 Intentional


The white Sox IBBed him twice in the 1st game 2 games ago. lol
no IBB yesterday and 2 HRs

[BoSoxFan1999]

Originally Posted by dantheman514

I have been in this camp for a couple weeks now, and I feel like Cal really sealed it on Sunday Night Baseball hitting #58 on national TV. I am a Yankees fan, but history and narrative matters when it comes to MVP. We have seen seasons like Judge has had, but we have never seen anything like what Cal has done.

There's just such a huge gap with many stats...BA/OBP/SLG/OPS/OPS+/wRC+....even WAR. If Judge had just a slight edge in all those stats, I could see voting for Dumper easily. But there are YUUUUUGE gaps between Judge and Raleigh in many of the most important categories: 80 points for BA, 94 points for OBP, 83 SLG, *177* points OPS, 41 points OPS+.
I mean these are Grand Canyon-esque gaps, not a skip and jump.

I guess it really boils down to how many MVP voters are swayed by the narrative Big D has set having arguably the greatest season ever by a catcher versus a ridiculously good, but not career year for Judge.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by Americards

Judge 121 walks 34 Intentional (in 10 less games)
Raleigh 95 walks 16 Intentional


The white Sox IBBed him twice in the 1st game 2 games ago. lol
no IBB yesterday and 2 HRs

You try promoting walks enough in the SW thread. Please keep it there.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

If Fanatics had taught me anything, it’s that’s there are historic accomplishments every day!
Topps Now: first player with two walks, a bloop hit, an error and thrown out at first on a strikeout! Look for relics!

This is true. Topps makes MLB history out of everything. 50 Homeruns and 50Ks by Ohtani is history even though MLB eliminated and discouraged home grown and probably Hispanic two way starts since the 1930s.

[corndog]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

The writers threw this thinking out the window when Judge had an historic season in 2017 by breaking the rookie home run record.

That was the year Altuve won right?

[Boo]

I wonder if anyone would change their vote now.


Just shows you that early voting sucks.

[SaveMeTheGum]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

If Fanatics had taught me anything, it’s that’s there are historic accomplishments every day!
Topps Now: first player with two walks, a bloop hit, an error and thrown out at first on a strikeout! Look for relics!

I've heard Judge set the 1st inning HR record this year...

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

If he hit 60 that year, he would have gotten MVP.

But why? He broke an historic home run record just like Cal did this year? Are we now left to determine if the rookie home run record is less important than a catcher or switch hitter home run record? It is more historic because Cal passed a Yankees Hall of Famer and Judge simply passed Mark McGwire?

I will venture to say the #1 reason Judge lost the MVP to Altuve that year is the fact that Judge's Ks were a big factor. Cal has significantly more Ks than Judge this year.

[NYRE2PECT]

Originally Posted by RainCityShecks

Plain and simple it’s a toss up fellas. Both have made great cases for themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is blowout, sir, get that logical take out of here right now!

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

It's not that wild. "Noteworthy" is a relative measure. Judge is having an amazing season. Raleigh is having a historic season. History matters in baseball. The Hank Aaron award was created so that the stat winner can get something in case someone else does something more significant. Which Raleigh has accomplished this year.

I mean, it's called the Most Valuable Player award -- the name of the award or the voting instructions imply nothing about the historical importance of the selection.

Mark McGwire didn't even win MVP in 1998 when he shattered the single-season home run record.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by corndog

That was the year Altuve won right?

Yes, but you already knew that being an Astros fan.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

I've heard Judge set the 1st inning HR record this year...

Nope, this year. He tied A-Rod at #1 with 18 last year.

https://www.statmuse.com/mlb/ask/mos...-in-one-season