8 Players on Contemporary Era HOF ballot announced.

[PuddleMonkey]

I took Winstrol in a cycle, probably my least favorite roid.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by carlo16

I was waiting for you to chime in. I’ll eat my words because you seem to actually know pitching. I’m honestly asking. How do steroids help velocity? I believe you but I just don’t see steroids helping in a lot of the mechanics that go into increased velocity? Lay back, hip shoulder separation and front leg mechanics.

easiest explanation is if you have stronger legs, stronger forearms, stronger core you are going to throw harder.

winstrol also helps with recovery tremendously. You can be in the gym for 2 hours the day after a start, push yourself more/earlier with long toss regimen between starts etc. The gains are necessarily from taking steroids but by pushing yourself in gym/workouts to a point that would not be possible with steroids.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by PuddleMonkey

I took Winstrol in a cycle, probably my least favorite roid.

Guessing you were not a pitcher then?

[carlo16]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

easiest explanation is if you have stronger legs, stronger forearms, stronger core you are going to throw harder.

winstrol also helps with recovery tremendously. You can be in the gym for 2 hours the day after a start, push yourself more/earlier with long toss regimen between starts etc. The gains are necessarily from taking steroids but by pushing yourself in gym/workouts to a point that would not be possible with steroids.

Stronger forearms to avoid injury ?

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

I was discussing age ranges -- not individual seasons.

Players during the steroid era were performing much better in their 30s -- a strong indication that many of them were using PEDs. I stated that you can see a before-and-after change in the performance of certain known users during that time period.

It’s a strong indication when the ball is juiced; which it was during that era.

[PuddleMonkey]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Guessing you were not a pitcher then?

No I could probably top out at 75mph in my prime. I didn't care for it as the water based shots were a b***h. I only mixed it into a cycle because I couldn't find anyone that would take them off my hands.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

It’s a strong indication when the ball is juiced; which it was during that era.

Highest league-average wRC+ of players aged 35 to 39 post-integration:

1. 1972 -- 107
2. 1999 -- 107
3. 1970 -- 107
4. 1994 -- 106
5. 1995 -- 105
6. 1998 -- 104
7. 1954 -- 104
8. 2000 -- 103
9. 1957 -- 103
10. 1977 -- 102

The ball was juiced during 2016-2019, but the highest wRC+ post-steroid era was 2014 at 99.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by carlo16

I was waiting for you to chime in. I’ll eat my words because you seem to actually know pitching. I’m honestly asking. How do steroids help velocity? I believe you but I just don’t see steroids helping in a lot of the mechanics that go into increased velocity? Lay back, hip shoulder separation and front leg mechanics.

There are two distinct types of pitching mechanics, in my understanding -- the tall-and-fall type, shown with Jacob deGrom, and the drop-and-drive type, shown with Nolan Ryan. The deGrom type relies on the momentum of "falling" down the mound. While the Ryan type relies on the force generated from the legs.

Either way, more mass generates more force behind the ball, all else being equal.

[carlo16]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

There are two distinct types of pitching mechanics, in my understanding -- the tall-and-fall type, shown with Jacob deGrom, and the drop-and-drive type, shown with Nolan Ryan. The deGrom type relies on the momentum of "falling" down the mound. While the Ryan type relies on the force generated from the legs.

Either way, more mass generates more force behind the ball, all else being equal.

Stick to numbers. You don’t know anything about actual baseball.

[ScooterD]

Originally Posted by carlo16

Stick to numbers. You don’t know anything about actual baseball.

He said that 4.4 was a higher/greater number than 4.5 when talking about WAR… not sure if numbers are his thing either

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by ScooterD

He said that 4.4 was a higher/greater number than 4.5 when talking about WAR… not sure if numbers are his thing either

WAR is an estimate. You should not use WAR with the expectation that it is precise to the decimal point.

https://library.fangraphs.com/misc/war/

[TenaciousJDD]

Absolutely chaotic panel of voters this year. Arte Moreno?!

https://x.com/JohnSheaHey/status/199...iTt0qBwAw&s=19

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[jdandns]

That was in the article linked in the original post. Each candidate needs 12 of the 16 judges to vote for them, but each judge can only vote for 3 candidates, so it won't be easy to get there. The results are to be announced this Sunday.
Hopefully, it will be a great day for Dodger fans and the Valenzuela family.

[carlo16]

Originally Posted by jdandns

That was in the article linked in the original post. Each candidate needs 12 of the 16 judges to vote for them, but each judge can only vote for 3 candidates, so it won't be easy to get there. The results are to be announced this Sunday.
Hopefully, it will be a great day for Dodger fans and the Valenzuela family.

I honesty didnt know Fernando had as good of a career as he did. I thought it was Fernandomania then done.

[duwal]

Originally Posted by carlo16

I honesty didnt know Fernando had as good of a career as he did. I thought it was Fernandomania then done.

after the age of 25 though he really dropped. First 6 full seasons were great and went 100-68 with 6 all-star appearances. Rest of his career went 73-85 with ERA of 4.20 after his shoulder injury in 1988

[TenaciousJDD]

Originally Posted by jdandns

That was in the article linked in the original post. Each candidate needs 12 of the 16 judges to vote for them, but each judge can only vote for 3 candidates, so it won't be easy to get there. The results are to be announced this Sunday.

Hopefully, it will be a great day for Dodger fans and the Valenzuela family.

The candidates were revealed last month, yes, but the 16 person voting committee was just revealed this morning. That's what I linked.

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[TenaciousJDD]

Trammell, Moreno, Ng, and Hirdt also voted in 2023 when Bonds and Clemens received fewer than 4 votes.

Stark voted for Bonds and Clemens on the BBWAA ballot in 2022 and was also a Kent and Murphy voter.

Overall this feels stacked in favor of Mattingly and Murphy as most of the players on the committee were their contemporaries. Ng was Mattingly's boss in Miami and I believe Attanasio has said that Mattingly was his favorite player growing up.

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[cfern023]

NGL, that list is very 80's and 70's heavy... these guys are screwed lol

[Handsome Wes]

Originally Posted by TenaciousJDD

Trammell, Moreno, Ng, and Hirdt also voted in 2023 when Bonds and Clemens received fewer than 4 votes.

Stark voted for Bonds and Clemens on the BBWAA ballot in 2022 and was also a Kent and Murphy voter.

Overall this feels stacked in favor of Mattingly and Murphy as most of the players on the committee were their contemporaries. Ng was Mattingly's boss in Miami and I believe Attanasio has said that Mattingly was his favorite player growing up.

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They didn't exactly do a great job spreading things around, 13 members of the baseball community and three of them are heavily connected to the Milwaukee Brewers? Two with the Twins, two with the Angels? Not exactly a representative swath here. It's a "modern baseball" ballot and the players are all from the 80s (and earlier). No disrespect to Jim Kaat, but what does he really know about playing with Carlos Delgado or Jeff Kent and such?

I said from the beginning that this ballot was designed deliberately to elect Mattingly and Murphy (and keep the PED guys out).

It's just hard to fathom that *this* was the best that the Hall could do in terms of a voting body.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by TenaciousJDD

Absolutely chaotic panel of voters this year. Arte Moreno?!

https://x.com/JohnSheaHey/status/199...iTt0qBwAw&s=19

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F. Jenkins, J. Kaat, Marichal, T. Pérez, Ozzie, A. Trammell, R. Yount

I know the Hall of Fame committee votes are basically a sham process, due to the selection of voters being based on who the Hall of Fame board wants voted in -- hint: no PED-taint guys. But how does it make any sense for a committee dedicated to voting on candidates who played since 1980 to have multiple voters who played most or all of their career pre-1980? And none of them played during the 2000s, even though 5 of the 8 players being considered did.

Basically, the Hall of Fame board is really stacking the deck in favor of Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly.

I swear to god, I am never visiting the Hall of Fame -- what a joke of an institution.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by carlo16

I honesty didnt know Fernando had as good of a career as he did. I thought it was Fernandomania then done.

He was mediocre and injury-prone after his age-26 season in 1987:

Fernando Valenzuela:

1980-87 (ages 19-26): 116 ERA+; 32.0 bWAR; 225.7 IP per-season average

1988-1997 (ages 27-36): 90 ERA+; 5.3 bWAR; 124.9 IP per-season average

[fabiani12333]

It's good to see multiple others commenting in this thread who have drawn the same conclusion as I have -- this committee is transparently a sham process designed to favor certain players over others. None of the voters played in the 2000s -- what an absolute joke. It's kind of refreshing to see no disagreement on this.

[carlo16]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

He was mediocre and injury-prone after his age-26 season in 1987:

Fernando Valenzuela:

1980-87 (ages 19-26): 116 ERA+; 32.0 bWAR; 225.7 IP per-season average

1988-1997 (ages 27-36): 90 ERA+; 5.3 bWAR; 124.9 IP per-season average

I honesty didnt know Fernando had as good of a career as he did. I thought it was Fernandomania then done.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by carlo16

I honesty didnt know Fernando had as good of a career as he did. I thought it was Fernandomania then done.

Fernandomania itself only lasted a short period of time. He won the CYA, ROY and World Series his first full season, and it was downhill from there.

Orel Hershiser was the Dodgers ace in the mid-to-late 80s.

[fabiani12333]

Fernando had a big impact culturally -- he was a superstar in Mexico and with the Mexican-American community in LA. But he peaked at the start of his career. It was not unlike Hideo Nomo in the mid-90s.