So how is everybody feeling about the Topps era?

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by kwamebrown

That's a good point and if I'm remembering correctly, everyone bashed panini products when they released also. Prizm was just a cheap, generic knock off of topps chrome, cartoon designs on kabooms looked like trash, etc etc.

Big difference this time around is that Chrome is anything but a cheap version of Prizm.

Sure, maybe Topps comes out with some kind of amazing brand/insert/design but more than likely, they will continue to price us out.

I've been a singles guy and only really rip wax with friends for fun, but even then, the amount I spend on ripping wax has only gone down the past 5 years. I'm guessing that trend will continue as prices continue to soar.

[oldgoldy97]

We need to hope for Heritage and Stadium Club for some additional affordable releases.

[Stackfan]

Originally Posted by Ericc5Bears

It's still wayyyyy too early to even begin to judge how the topps era will truly stack up. A lot of people are saying that nothing will compare to prizm, kabooms, downtowns, etc but it's important to remember that even though panini first got the nba license in 2009:

The first prizm set wasn't until 2012

The first kaboom wasn't until 2013

The first downtown wasn't until 2016

The first kaboom gold/green wasn't until 2018

The first downtown gold wasn't until 2021

It took years and in some cases a decade+ for panini to really hit their stride and create the cards that would end up being "iconic", impossible to say within the first few months what is/isn't going to be important from topps. Sure, they've has had the license before so it's a pretty safe bet that something like a topps chrome superfractor is going to be incredibly important, but all the new releases are pretty unchartered territory.

Topps has been making cards for 75 years.

In 2009, Panini got their first major license for sports cards… so yeah, it took a few years for people to jump on. Even some of those early sets were nice. (Other not so much)

In my opinion, Topps has a history and Fanatics shelled out a ton of money, so they don’t get a few year pass. Clearly they knew basketball would be popular if they made 33% more than baseball in chrome. I think Topps can make nice looking cards, but I’m not sold they or fanatics are interested in pricing sets affordable for the collector and even just making them available to customers. They seem very content on funneling large quantities to breakers, with a EQL fo 1% of what they make.

[weatherwarrior]

Topps isnt setting prices on release day. D&A, blowout and breakers are setting the prices.

Topps isnt putting a price on the sets. Thats is being done by secondary transactions. Will topps get better inserts?

I would imagine they will. Time will tell though. But the depth in the case hit type inserts, card stock is rather nice. Ultraviolet, and radiating rookies were nice, pulse from finest is solid.

It will take time for the last 15 years of panini and the those who collect but have only know panini to come around.

Topps has had some wins and loses for sure. 3 amd midnight are rough. Ive enjoyed the other releases. I think finest has its place and considering how limited the print run is could be sought after down the line. But again time will tell.

Would some retail only sets be beneficial possibly but will they? Scalpers have wiped out every store from basketball in my general area. And since products are basically just being flipped its hard to blame fanatics for that.

They deserve a lot of blame from some of the clownery we have seen. Just not from that angle.

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[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by weatherwarrior

Topps isnt setting prices on release day. D&A, blowout and breakers are setting the prices.

Topps isnt putting a price on the sets. Thats is being done by secondary transactions. Will topps get better inserts?

I would imagine they will. Time will tell though. But the depth in the case hit type inserts, card stock is rather nice. Ultraviolet, and radiating rookies were nice, pulse from finest is solid.

It will take time for the last 15 years of panini and the those who collect but have only know panini to come around.

Topps has had some wins and loses for sure. 3 amd midnight are rough. Ive enjoyed the other releases. I think finest has its place and considering how limited the print run is could be sought after down the line. But again time will tell.

Would some retail only sets be beneficial possibly but will they? Scalpers have wiped out every store from basketball in my general area. And since products are basically just being flipped its hard to blame fanatics for that.

They deserve a lot of blame from some of the clownery we have seen. Just not from that angle.

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Topps can absolutely control price at least for the first wave of product. They threaten to ban dealers who release product prior to release day. They can do the same for dealers who sell above a certain price.

The truth is Topps/Fanatics does not want to keep prices low. It's just convenient that they can blame it on DA/BO/SCC etc...

In the leaked docs, wasn't one of the pluses under DA and BO was that they help to set secondary prices?

[weatherwarrior]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

Topps can absolutely control price at least for the first wave of product. They threaten to ban dealers who release product prior to release day. They can do the same for dealers who sell above a certain price.



The truth is Topps/Fanatics does not want to keep prices low. It's just convenient that they can blame it on DA/BO/SCC etc...



In the leaked docs, wasn't one of the pluses under DA and BO was that they help to set secondary prices?

What i was saying is they set release release day pricing. But dont worry first off the line style auctions will happen and make it more difficult for product to get to end users.

I find it funny that the same complaints here, reddit and Twitter are being echoed. Its all AI slop, designs are boring etc. Like has anyone paid attention to prizm its always been bland and boring. But its the core to any collection for basketball.

Does toops have prices too high. For most collectors, yes! Once the product is released and in the hands of stores amd ebay sellers. They no longer have control. It becimes supply and demand. But kits back up 2 years.

Because hoops cost over 300 a box out of the gate. All products containing Wemby rookie cards was ridiculously high. Where were the riots in the atreets?

They didnt happen then and shouldn't happen now. Baseball has been high as hell for years, football is about to be the same. Basketball is just another in the line of entertainment outlets that ruin is using as a personal piggybank. They dont care about collectors. They care about getting product to fanatics live where they get a slice of the fees to rip at asinine levels.

I think unrealistic expectations is what this all is. We all want to have access to products at reasonable prices. But what company wouldn't raise their products cost to make record profits and satisfying share holders. Because that is what topps is doing for fanstics... lining pockets and raising revenue.

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[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Ericc5Bears

It's still wayyyyy too early to even begin to judge how the topps era will truly stack up. A lot of people are saying that nothing will compare to prizm, kabooms, downtowns, etc but it's important to remember that even though panini first got the nba license in 2009:

The first prizm set wasn't until 2012

The first kaboom wasn't until 2013

The first downtown wasn't until 2016

The first kaboom gold/green wasn't until 2018

The first downtown gold wasn't until 2021

It took years and in some cases a decade+ for panini to really hit their stride and create the cards that would end up being "iconic", impossible to say within the first few months what is/isn't going to be important from topps. Sure, they've has had the license before so it's a pretty safe bet that something like a topps chrome superfractor is going to be incredibly important, but all the new releases are pretty uncharted territory.

Unlike Topps, Panini was new to basketball card production in 2009. They didn't have their own established basketball card brands and acquired Donruss Playoff that same year. Topps has been manufacturing sports cards non-stop since 1952 and have long-established basketball card brands.

If you think Topps is suddenly going to start creating whole new basketball card brands that will become iconic and sought-after, I think you'll end up disappointed. They are primarily going to rely on their existing brands and AI designs.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by kwamebrown

Prizm was just a cheap, generic knock off of topps chrome, cartoon designs on kabooms looked like trash, etc etc.

Right, and they exploded in value during the pandemic boom. Before that, they were only a fraction of the values.

So, why should we expect future Topps basketball cards to have the same trajectory?

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Stackfan

In my opinion, Topps has a history and Fanatics shelled out a ton of money, so they don’t get a few year pass. Clearly they knew basketball would be popular if they made 33% more than baseball in chrome. I think Topps can make nice looking cards, but I’m not sold they or fanatics are interested in pricing sets affordable for the collector and even just making them available to customers. They seem very content on funneling large quantities to breakers, with a EQL fo 1% of what they make.

Fanatics acquired existing companies so they could extract more value out of them than their previous owners. They are going to maximize sales revenue and profits so their eventual IPO valuation is as high as possible. Don't expect anything from them to trend towards affordability. They don't care about collectors or traditional hobbyists. They are still in the process of taking over the hobby and reaching full vertical integration -- they ultimately want to control the sale of cards end-to-end and take as much profit from the industry as possible.

Good luck long-term to the group breakers who are riding high now -- it wont last forever.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by weatherwarrior

Topps isnt setting prices on release day. D&A, blowout and breakers are setting the prices.

Topps isnt putting a price on the sets. Thats is being done by secondary transactions. Will topps get better inserts?

Topps manipulates pricing through supply and distribution. They choose to limit initial supply to create artificial scarcity and take advantage of secondary pricing, and distribute direct to breakers to maximize wholesale prices (they also financially benefit from breaks on Fanatics Live and probably do profit sharing with their biggest dealers).

[weatherwarrior]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Topps manipulates pricing through supply and distribution. They choose to limit initial supply to create artificial scarcity and take advantage of secondary pricing, and distribute direct to breakers to maximize wholesale prices (they also financially benefit from breaks on Fanatics Live and probably do profit sharing with their biggest dealers).

I think that is the number i would like to know.

How much do they dlget from breakers on fanstics live? That is where the incentive to dump things sits. As you stated they dont care about collectors. They care about bottom lines and offloading a product for maximum dollars. One of the days when/if breaking dies its going to be a world of hurt for those guys.

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[bub838]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

With Topps, the desirable cards are nearly impossible to obtain or extremely expensive on the secondary market -- think Debut Patches and such. They exist to drive product sales through group breaks. With Panini, they actually made desirable cards that were obtainable to collectors and not stupid expensive, whether it was case-hit inserts or gold parallels.

You're likely going to continue to get AI-slop designs with Topps with a small number of big product chase hits that won't be obtainable.

Jumping from Debut Patches to Downtowns and ignoring everything in between is a hell of a leap. There are desirable cards coming out of Chrome, just because you don't like them doesn't mean the people paying for them don't.
Gold /10 parallels from Panini are obtainable and not stupid expensive? what?
Also, if you're looking at recent Downtowns and not thinking it's also AI slop then you're just being intentionally obtuse.

Debut Patches are in Chrome, which is arguably more obtainable to most people then trying to hit the big RPA from Flawless.

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

I mean, they just re-used the designs from baseball. Ultra Violet and All Kings were also recycled designs -- they do look nice, though.

How is that different from Panini? Designs in Prizm carry over from sport to sport.

The hindsight glazing of Panini should really be studied. Topps has plenty of issues and valid critiques but you're just intentionally stirring up #@#@#@#@ like you usually do. Whether you believe it or not, Chrome is a well thought out product, especially for such a massive release.

I do think Finest, Midnight, Three are all garbage cash grabs. But, Mosaic? Obsidian? Noir? These aren't any better.

[PKIPP]

It’s kinda absurd there’s only been 5 releases and it’s March. And doesn’t seem like anything else is coming out within the next month. They had years to prepare re for this..

Anyways.. give me heritage, archives, or whatever vintage themed sets they make. Give me five star, sterling, tier one, museum. Echelon for the high end ish stuff. Bowman chrome and Stadium Club would be great too.


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[yiguiri2002]

Originally Posted by Ericc5Bears

It's still wayyyyy too early to even begin to judge how the topps era will truly stack up. A lot of people are saying that nothing will compare to prizm, kabooms, downtowns, etc but it's important to remember that even though panini first got the nba license in 2009:

The first prizm set wasn't until 2012

The first kaboom wasn't until 2013

The first downtown wasn't until 2016

The first kaboom gold/green wasn't until 2018

The first downtown gold wasn't until 2021

It took years and in some cases a decade+ for panini to really hit their stride and create the cards that would end up being "iconic", impossible to say within the first few months what is/isn't going to be important from topps. Sure, they've has had the license before so it's a pretty safe bet that something like a topps chrome superfractor is going to be incredibly important, but all the new releases are pretty uncharted territory.

I think it's a completely different scenario. Look at Geech Quest's thread about the best inserts from the Panini era. They had tons of amazing ones before Downtowns were even a thought.

The fact that certain sets will go crazy in value doesn't mean that the rest was bad.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by PKIPP

It’s kinda absurd there’s only been 5 releases and it’s March. And doesn’t seem like anything else is coming out within the next month. They had years to prepare re for this..

You're forgetting how bad Fanatics is at operations.....

They're great at buying up licenses....not so good on the manufacturing side of things.....

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by bub838

Jumping from Debut Patches to Downtowns and ignoring everything in between is a hell of a leap. There are desirable cards coming out of Chrome, just because you don't like them doesn't mean the people paying for them don't.
Gold /10 parallels from Panini are obtainable and not stupid expensive? what?
Also, if you're looking at recent Downtowns and not thinking it's also AI slop then you're just being intentionally obtuse.

Debut Patches are in Chrome, which is arguably more obtainable to most people then trying to hit the big RPA from Flawless.

How is that different from Panini? Designs in Prizm carry over from sport to sport.

The hindsight glazing of Panini should really be studied. Topps has plenty of issues and valid critiques but you're just intentionally stirring up #@#@#@#@ like you usually do. Whether you believe it or not, Chrome is a well thought out product, especially for such a massive release.

I do think Finest, Midnight, Three are all garbage cash grabs. But, Mosaic? Obsidian? Noir? These aren't any better.

I have a limit on what I willing to spend on Prizm golds and such, and I have been able to amass a solid collection of Curry golds. No base Prizm golds because they are always too expensive to merely collect, but everything else is in play.

Debut Patches are not more obtainable than Panini high-end product hits when you factor in the way-longer odds due to the high print run. With Flawless, you pay a lot more per box or spot, but your odds are way higher than a mass-produced product like TCU.

I just looked over the most recent basketball Downtowns, and they look pretty similar to previous years. Are they AI generated? I don't know, but I wouldn't describe them as AI slop. They have the cartoonish style of the previous iterations. And with Downtowns, you're always getting new city landmarks or themes in the design -- it's not like Kaboom, which is pretty much the same design year-after-year.

Panini designs took a downturn when Fanatics acquired the NBA trading card rights in late 2021. But they had a nice window between the mid 2010s and early 2020s where they produced nice cards -- they represent the bulk of my basketball card collection. Topps, on the other hand, has continued to trend downward since Fanatics acquired them -- it's been AI slop and bland designs all the way the last couple of years.

This year's TC base design is just a repurposing of last year's MLB design. I don't like the design, but to each their own. But there is nothing special about it -- it has some nice inserts, but nothing that will have long-term impact like Downtowns and Prizm golds.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by mfw13

You're forgetting how bad Fanatics is at operations.....

They're great at buying up licenses....not so good on the manufacturing side of things.....

Fanatics has bought hobby businesses not so they can acquire talented people or markedly improve their operations, but so they can monopolize the industry and squeeze more profits out of it. They assume consumers will continue to buy from them no matter how bad the quality of their products get or how expensive they become.

[Ericc5Bears]

Originally Posted by yiguiri2002

I think it's a completely different scenario. Look at Geech Quest's thread about the best inserts from the Panini era. They had tons of amazing ones before Downtowns were even a thought.

The fact that certain sets will go crazy in value doesn't mean that the rest was bad.

I get it, but that thread was started in 2018, with a full decade worth of panini releases to choose from. It takes time and education for people to find and appreciate certain sets/specific cards. On top of that, no hate to Geech as it's just opinion at the end of the day, but I really believe most of the "best" inserts featured in that thread would be seen as garbage if they were released by topps today. For example, these were #5, #8, and #10 on the list when it was initially realeased.








All 3 genuinely looks like something a kid taking a high school graphic design class could put together in about 30 minutes with an outdated version of photoshop. In only the first 5 topps releases from this year I could find at least 5 inserts which look better than all 3 of those.


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[tjforce]

Originally Posted by Ericc5Bears

I get it, but that thread was started in 2018, with a full decade worth of panini releases to choose from. It takes time and education for people to find and appreciate certain sets/specific cards. On top of that, no hate to Geech as it's just opinion at the end of the day, but I really believe most of the "best" inserts featured in that thread would be seen as garbage if they were released by topps today. For example, these were #5, #8, and #10 on the list when it was initially realeased.








All 3 genuinely looks like something a kid taking a high school graphic design class could put together in about 30 minutes with an outdated version of photoshop. In only the first 5 topps releases from this year I could find at least 5 inserts which look better than all 3 of those.


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A lot happened since 2018.

If you look at what Panini created that has caught on as the hobby has grown, much of it is childlike design.

I call it the Idiocracy Card Market. Instead of creative and artistic designs and mniiscule print runs, many of the rubes seem to be attracted to cartoons.

[pingbling23]

Originally Posted by Ericc5Bears

I get it, but that thread was started in 2018, with a full decade worth of panini releases to choose from. It takes time and education for people to find and appreciate certain sets/specific cards. On top of that, no hate to Geech as it's just opinion at the end of the day, but I really believe most of the "best" inserts featured in that thread would be seen as garbage if they were released by topps today. For example, these were #5, #8, and #10 on the list when it was initially realeased.








All 3 genuinely looks like something a kid taking a high school graphic design class could put together in about 30 minutes with an outdated version of photoshop. In only the first 5 topps releases from this year I could find at least 5 inserts which look better than all 3 of those.


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I’ve never even seen any of these sets. Panini has had many inserts that are above these.

[anusinha]

So are we getting any new basketball sets? Nothing has been announced or teased yet.

[BackToWax]

Originally Posted by anusinha

So are we getting any new basketball sets? Nothing has been announced or teased yet.

It's a joke at this point. They haven't released a new retail product since December. Designs are all ai slop. Prices are insane.

Topps fanboys: "but they share the odds, so I can sperg out on the checklist. So much better than panini"

I prefer decent looking cards and new retail products available over odds.