MUST READ TRIMMING THREAD: COMC- HawkDynasty,cccardfactory,LORDSTANLEY2012|PWCC|ih8ca

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by NickM

10% off which edge?

each.

[cardfund]

I can't thank the contributors to this thread enough. Big eye opener.

[mondogenerator]

i wonder if its time to start posting on their FB and Twitter asking about their plans n policies to address this activity and their willingness to work with FBI and whoever else is likely to come knocking at some point.

their awareness and subsequent silence/avoidance is pretty telling.

[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by palmetto7

I'm beginning to think there is a secretive meeting every year like a G8 for all these clowns....PSA..bgs...Moser...comc...pwcc...etc etc

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

It’s called The National Show

[banosd]

Aweome job, the jig is up for the high-end card market. Outstanding job following the digital trail here.

I was a fraud analyst at Amazon in 2004 and 2005 when I was in Seattle and I was closing 3rd party seller accounts as fast as they popped up. The technology has always been available to detect this kind of stuff but thanks to the good eyes and passion of the contributors, we can hopefully put a stop to it. Thanks for this!

[lloydchristmas]

I really hope this doesn’t spread to 4SC, too.

Dammit.

Great job OP and everyone else.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by lloydchristmas

I really hope this doesn’t spread to 4SC, too.

Dammit.

Great job OP and everyone else.

I don't think it will because there's no before photos of 80s and 90s junk wax.

[pspa123]

So far, I'm of the view that 4SC gets very good material and the benefit of being a high volume submitter (which is bad enough in its own right), but isn't hacking up stuff. I sure hope I am not wrong.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by SHowley2003

Well maybe they don’t measure cards at all if certain individuals submit them. The short (pun intended) version of the story is that when I was going through my sales and purchases today to see if I ever dealt with any of these COMC accounts I remained I did buy 1 graded card from Hawkdynasty. It was a $10 card that I personally had submitted 5 different copies for grading and all 5 came back as not meeting the minimum size requirements. It ends up that it was a set that was designed with poor specs and almost always measured small. For 3+ years, despite finding many raw copies, I couldn’t find a single PSA graded copy. The only one I have ever seen was on COMC & sold by Hawkdynasty.

You also say PSA only measures cards if the look small? Can the human eye easily detect a variance of 1/64”? I don’t think so. If they don’t measure every card they are doing a huge disservice to the customer.

Unfortunately you have missed a lot.

To save you the time of digging through the threads, Joe Orlando himself wrote an article describing the human nature of the grading process. They may measure certain issues, but they otherwise do not measure unless they don’t pass the eye test.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

To save you the time of digging through the threads, Joe Orlando himself wrote an article describing the human nature of the grading process.

”Taking My Hacks: Whack Jobs – The Issue of Card Trimming”

Joe Orlando (January 20, 2004)

“Today, there are those who are still [trimming cards]. Some of them are butchers and some of them are master artists, but it doesn't, in any way, change the approach of PSA graders. The tools have changed in some cases and the skill level of the whackers has heightened but so has the awareness of our experts -- that's what they are paid to do -- and that's why people have so much faith in the PSA process.”

“The biggest point of confusion with trimming comes when a collector notices a card that is slightly undersized -- even in the PSA holder. I hear the cries, "That card looks small, it must be trimmed -- trimmed I say!" Nothing could be further from the truth. Is size one factor that may tip off a grader that a card could be altered? Of course -- but size alone, in this case, does not matter.”

“I can remember opening vending cases from the early 1970s where the cards came in a variety of sizes. Pre-war cards, especially, were cut very inconsistently. To most, the size differences are subtle but when placed in a holder, the card's size is more apparent. My point here is simple. Cards can come in different sizes straight from the factory -- straight out of the pack -- straight from a vending case. Experienced hobbyists know this but many do not.”

“Just as in the everyday world of criminal justice, it's up to the authorities to keep up with or stay a step ahead of the criminals in order to prevent crime and catch them. As the world's sportscard grading authority, we take the same approach and will accept nothing less from our staff.”

https://www.facebook.com/SportsCardR...6614815279007/

[Card Love]

Amazing work guys! You guys should be proud of yourselves exposing the scum. My only comment is that It would be nice if this information was really out there and not just for the people on Blowout. This way it could maybe help those that dont know about the scum and maybe help others avoid purchasing trimmed and altered cards. I just hope more people dont get scammed. Just my 2 cents. Keep up the good work.

[Bowman1951]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I don't think it will because there's no before photos of 80s and 90s junk wax.

Just this past week, they have been heavily advertising high end hockey cards which sounds all too familiar to the HawkDynasty COMC Sale a few months back. They have many high end cards in their inventory, take a look some time with a sort by price of their stuff.

I’m not saying they are trimming but they go way beyond just selling junk era.

[allstarcollect]

Originally Posted by Bowman1951

Just this past week, they have been heavily advertising high end hockey cards which sounds all too familiar to the HawkDynasty COMC Sale a few months back. They have many high end cards in their inventory, take a look some time with a sort by price of their stuff.

I’m not saying they are trimming but they go way beyond just selling junk era.

I have my share of high-end untrimmed raw hockey cards on there. It is a shame if this type of stuff will impact everyone, which it will. Thankfully I never really got into the whole grading side of it, and therefore have very few graded cards.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I don't think it will because there's no before photos of 80s and 90s junk wax.

So we know Chez’s collection is clean.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by the27guy

I don’t even want to guess how many hours of work went into that first post. Thank you to each of the people who helped. I didn’t understand all of it - but I understood enough to get the idea.

Like everyone else here I would guess, I’m just incredibly frustrated by this.

As a forum, the most valuable work that’s being done is the finding of this behavior.

I’m probably in the minority on this, but I feel badly for COMC here. They’re in the business of selling cards on behalf of others and they provide a service that a good portion of us use and appreciate. How are they supposed to detect trimming on cards that are graded? How are they supposed to detect it on cards that aren’t? This isn’t easy. It’s just a sucky situation.

I agree with those of you calling for the individual who submitted trimmed cards to COMC to be required to give all information and items be removed from the site.

But more and more, I feel like we should be pointing at graders and asking them for reform. I’ve said it dozens of times now.... I just want to know the dimensions of the card in the case.... the graders need to provide that data electronically and allow us to decide if the card is trimmed. Every single time.

In the coming years, I believe that we will care far more about how big a card is than what it’s graded. You’d rather have a card that’s graded a 6 and is the size expected than a 10 that’s 1/64 of an inch too small.

Thanks again guys. Keep going. Keep finding stuff. It is discouraging. But it’s 100% needed.

Knowing dimensions mostly only offers a false sense of security.

It would only could be helpful to know dimensions if a card if a serial numbered card were resubmitted. Otherwise, the size of a card varies from the factory.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Knowing dimensions mostly only offers a false sense of security.

It would only could be helpful to know dimensions if a card if a serial numbered card were resubmitted. Otherwise, the size of a card varies from the factory.

If a given card’s size can be compared with all of the other cards of that set that have been submitted, that’s powerful information. Let’s say, 50 cards from a given set have been graded and one that I’m thinking of buying happens to come up in the ten percent that are the shortest..... that’s something that I’d like to know.

If the graders can’t figure out what is and is not trimmed, then i at least want them to tell us the dimensions of the card which allows us to decide for ourselves.

I want to know the weight of the card too.

[Bowman1951]

This is to dispel the myth that 4 Sharp Corners only sells junk era stuff...

[IMG]4sc highest prices by Bowman1951, on Flickr[/IMG]

[glen87]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

So we know Chez’s collection is clean.

[palmetto7]

All this garbage makes me feel better about collecting Topps now Yankee relic/autos. At least Im the first one touching them before all the scammers can grace them with their "magic" touch. And no need to "grade" them as I'm never selling anyway.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by Bowman1951

I’m going to be a bit un-PC here and predict NOBODY goes to prison for any of this because it’s a bunch of old white guy crime that people rarely do time for.
Trimming will continue even if this all ends up blowing over somehow. There s
I truly feel that way and until someone is behind bars, should at least be some who are made examples of but most of these dudes will get good enough lawyers and all plead out somehow.

Just like the college Admissions scandal that will likely not see any jail time involving it.....

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1429812001

Sadly, I agree with you.

I know legally this will slowly play out over the next several months/years. But these guys are still apparently operating, selling, and making money hand over fist.


I have over $9K in COMC sales over the last few years. I know at some point I have sold to these scammers.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Bowman1951

This is to dispel the myth that 4 Sharp Corners only sells junk era stuff...

[IMG]4sc highest prices by Bowman1951, on Flickr[/IMG]

I have long surmised that at least some of their high end vintage was consignments. But could be wrong.

[luckyduck]

Originally Posted by pspa123

So far, I'm of the view that 4SC gets very good material and the benefit of being a high volume submitter (which is bad enough in its own right), but isn't hacking up stuff. I sure hope I am not wrong.

I bought a base Ohtani rookie from them that I think looks small and I noticed a Jaromir Jagr rookie that didn't fill its holder very well. They send emails about vintage "high grade set breaks" every few weeks that make me wonder. I don't know if I'd have a lot of confidence in them.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by the27guy

If a given card’s size can be compared with all of the other cards of that set that have been submitted, that’s powerful information. Let’s say, 50 cards from a given set have been graded and one that I’m thinking of buying happens to come up in the ten percent that are the shortest..... that’s something that I’d like to know.



If the graders can’t figure out what is and is not trimmed, then i at least want them to tell us the dimensions of the card which allows us to decide for ourselves.



I want to know the weight of the card too.

This isn’t going to help.

[qdoggmets]

Originally Posted by hockeyguy2006

They have machines that can do this using a camera. They are used in manufacturing.

Every iPhone has an app that can do it, granted it is not perfect.

If it is that common place, more sophisticated versions exit.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by palmetto7

All this garbage makes me feel better about collecting Topps now Yankee relic/autos. At least Im the first one touching them before all the scammers can grace them with their "magic" touch. And no need to "grade" them as I'm never selling anyway.

Busting wax offers the same protection.