American League MVP - Page 10

pewe · 08-30-2022, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Lyle

He should be in the race. I brought him up with some conversation about him because I find it ridiculous that he isn't in the conversation. Not sure what else he has to do.

I'm a huge JoRam fan, and really anyone in the AL who is an amazing 3B (Devers and Bregman), but at this point Judge is ahead in all conceivable ways. Even putting up defensive numbers that aren't so far off our favorite third basemen. It is really an impressive showing by Judge.

fulltritty · 08-30-2022, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BabaORiley

I agree. I thought that guy was at least attempting good-faith argument until about 10-12 obnoxious posts ago. It's why my second favorite team has long been "whoever's playing the Yankees today".

The only reason they are obnoxious to you is that you are an Ohtaini fanboy. As I posted this morning, one more of the very few things Ohtaini actually leads the AL in is about to fall to Judge; quite possibly by his own pitching staff.

And as for your hate of the Yankees, my position would be the same if it wasn't Judge but someone else on another team with the same numbers as Judge and what he is doing. It has nothing to do with the fact that he is a Yankee.

AnthonyCorona · 08-30-2022, 08:17 AM

Give it to Julio!

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zworykin · 08-30-2022, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pewe

Remind me: who is adding all that extra value on the Angels roster because of the extra spot they have available???

On the other hand, the Angels have a more risk prone team setup vs. others that solved the P + DH needs with similar (or even better) value. All while not missing that extra lineup spot.

Who's the second player along with Ohtani? I will choose Trout. Why do you get to choose the team's two best players but Ohtani has to be paired with the final spot on the roster? Rosters are built from the top down. The difference is that Ohtani + Trout leaves you a "spare" (i.e. significantly more flexible) roster spot when you get to the bottom. Verlander + Yordan does not.

NYRE2PECT · 08-30-2022, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnthonyCorona

Give it to Julio!

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Dude, you make me smile. Stay true. You've been there since day 1 and I love it.

pewe · 08-30-2022, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zworykin

Who's the second player along with Ohtani? I will choose Trout. Why do you get to choose the team's two best players but Ohtani has to be paired with the final spot on the roster? Rosters are built from the top down. The difference is that Ohtani + Trout leaves you a "spare" (i.e. significantly more flexible) roster spot when you get to the bottom. Verlander + Yordan does not.

Again, who is in that "spare" roster spot adding value? Flexibility there is only as valuable as the marginal player who sits in that spot.

Teams sill get to use IL liberally, to open up spots for players that are ailing and need to rest longer than one game. They can still send people down to the minors, etc.

On the other hand, when Ohtani goes down, the Angels lose two positions. Putting them in a tough spot relative to other teams who only have one playing spot to make up for.

Net net: Ohtani going two ways
-- adds hard to identify value in that "spare" roster spot
-- actually makes the team riskier from a reliability perspective

AnthonyCorona · 08-30-2022, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYRE2PECT

Dude, you make me smile. Stay true. You've been there since day 1 and I love it.

I probably have annoyed most people with my Julio love so thank you for not hating!

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NYRE2PECT · 08-30-2022, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnthonyCorona

I probably have annoyed most people with my Julio love so thank you for not hating!

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Nah, you have roots, and I can respect that.

pewe · 08-30-2022, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRX

They're paying Ohtani 5.5M this year.

BTW this is a fascinating question: is Ohtani the easy answer for performance vs. compensation MVP??? There can't be anyone else close, can there?

oldgoldy97 · 08-30-2022, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pewe

I think what you are suggesting is:
1) you couldn’t replace Ohtani and get the same result
2) you could replace Judge and get the same result

I’m not sure either of those is true. Part of Ohtani’s weakness in the current rules of the game is he is fully replaceable. While he is a highly unusual combination of skills, that is extraordinary from a difficulty standpoint… he also doesn’t create more value than another top 10 pitcher + good DH combo. For instance would you rather have Ohtani, or Verlander + Yordan? This is the real problem Ohtani faces… he is a good option for P+DH, but not as valuable as what you can get out of two players on other teams.

On the other hand, could you replace Judge with two players? Or JoRam? I’m not sure we can create a Frankenstein platoon that would beat their performance.

Thus from a true MVP standpoint Judge or JoRam are more irreplaceable than Ohtani. Even if Ohtani is rarer to deliver his result.

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I like this explanation.

JRX · 08-30-2022, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pewe

BTW this is a fascinating question: is Ohtani the easy answer for performance vs. compensation MVP??? There can't be anyone else close, can there?

Trout was making about half a million when he was putting up 10 war seasons early in his career. Again showing how incompetent the Angles front office is. They've had two times within a 10 yr span where they had a player at a huge discount to their contribution on the field and failed to build a winning team.

Chris Lyle · 08-30-2022, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pewe

I'm a huge JoRam fan, and really anyone in the AL who is an amazing 3B (Devers and Bregman), but at this point Judge is ahead in all conceivable ways. Even putting up defensive numbers that aren't so far off our favorite third basemen. It is really an impressive showing by Judge.

I fully understand he is ahead. I just pointed out that I wish from a true MVP stand point that JRam was in the conversation more. That turned into a conversation and then being called a total homer who wouldn't even admit that Ramirez won't win and so I backed away..

NYRE2PECT · 08-30-2022, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRX

Trout was making about half a million when he was putting up 10 war seasons early in his career. Again showing how incompetent the Angles front office is. They've had two times within a 10 yr span where they had a player at a huge discount to their contribution on the field and failed to build a winning team.

This is why Arte must sell, and then we may have a chance at competing.

hammertime · 08-30-2022, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fulltritty

As I posted this morning, one more of the very few things Ohtaini actually leads the AL in is about to fall to Judge; quite possibly by his own pitching staff.

I missed it the other (at least) 2 times you posted this so thanks for saying it a 3rd time! The pitchers aren't making the call to intentionally walk Judge. And he's being walked because the Angels are focused on winning the game...something your guys may want to try.

cnewby · 08-30-2022, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pewe

I'm a huge JoRam fan, and really anyone in the AL who is an amazing 3B (Devers and Bregman), but at this point Judge is ahead in all conceivable ways. Even putting up defensive numbers that aren't so far off our favorite third basemen. It is really an impressive showing by Judge.

Davers 13 errors are laughing at this comment.

hammertime · 08-30-2022, 09:02 AM

The speeling in this thread is giving me a migraine.

fulltritty · 08-30-2022, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hammertime

I missed it the other (at least) 2 times you posted this so thanks for saying it a 3rd time! The pitchers aren't making the call to intentionally walk Judge. And he's being walked because the Angels are focused on winning the game...something your guys may want to try.

2nd most wins in the American League and 4th most in MLB. You're right. They need to try harder.

oldgoldy97 · 08-30-2022, 09:10 AM

The Angels should work on their focusing more. It doesn’t seem to work.

no10pin · 08-30-2022, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

The Angels should work on their focusing more. It doesn’t seem to work.

Agreed, they definitely need to focus on focusing.

oldgoldy97 · 08-30-2022, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no10pin

Agreed, they definitely need to focus on focusing.

They may be focusing too hard. Try a less focused focus?

no10pin · 08-30-2022, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

They may be focusing too hard. Try a less focused focus?

dodgerfanjohn · 08-30-2022, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pewe

Where would they play in the field??? It would be interesting to see each of those guys try to Catch. And Ohtani would be an adventure in the field, that is for sure. Judge in the infield? Maybe he'd be all three outfield positions and 1B and DH?

Ohtani's team might put up historic levels of errors. Judge's team might be serviceable in the field.

5 Judges batting against an Ohtani... I guess they might get good at reading his approach to pitching and really kill him - his wRC+ and HR totals increasing. Ohtani might not get such an advantage, as he's pitched by a whole set of average pitchers - he probably puts up similar numbers to what he does already.

Squinting at it, you might like that Judge team better.

So sure of Ohtanis fielding? He played a little in Japan, mostly right field, and seems to be the type that is capable of anything. He is said to have a strong arm, and his build is proto first baseman. I’m pretty sure 3 Ohtani OF plus 1st and DH is a decent fielding team.

zworykin · 08-30-2022, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pewe

Again, who is in that "spare" roster spot adding value? Flexibility there is only as valuable as the marginal player who sits in that spot.

Teams sill get to use IL liberally, to open up spots for players that are ailing and need to rest longer than one game. They can still send people down to the minors, etc.

On the other hand, when Ohtani goes down, the Angels lose two positions. Putting them in a tough spot relative to other teams who only have one playing spot to make up for.

Net net: Ohtani going two ways
-- adds hard to identify value in that "spare" roster spot
-- actually makes the team riskier from a reliability perspective

Sure, if Ohtani gets hurt, the team is temporarily down the equivalent of two All Stars.

Thus, his value is roughly equal to two All Stars.

QED?

pewe · 08-30-2022, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnewby

Davers 13 errors are laughing at this comment.

He's still got more defensive fWAR than JoRam and Bregman this year

pewe · 08-30-2022, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zworykin

Sure, if Ohtani gets hurt, the team is temporarily down the equivalent of two All Stars.

Thus, his value is roughly equal to two All Stars.

QED?

QED, other teams with two All Stars, and one gets hurt, are only down one All Star

Ohtani gut punches you twice

08-30-2022, 08:17 AM	#228
AnthonyCorona Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Modesto, CA Posts: 11,405 bwoodcollector	Give it to Julio! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk __________________ Julio better

08-30-2022, 09:02 AM	#241
hammertime Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: OH->MI->MD->VA Posts: 6,688	The speeling in this thread is giving me a migraine.

08-30-2022, 09:10 AM	#243
oldgoldy97 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 50,121	The Angels should work on their focusing more. It doesn’t seem to work.