Lebron Going Forward

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by bkcardcollector

Just wanted to break down this quote for y'all:

“To know that I’m on the verge of breaking probably the most sought-after record in the NBA, things that people say would probably never be done, I think it’s just super humbling for myself. I think it’s super cool.” - LeBRON JAMES On passing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

1. The most sought-after record in the NBA is most rings.

2. Nobody ever said the points total would not be broken. People are scoring more points now then ever. Bodies are lasting longer...

3. Humbling - cause (someone) to feel less important or proud... lol. This one takes the cake. I don't think LeKing understands what he is saying here. He just takes random quotes that people say that sound good and repeats them. Never actually saying anything.

All in one little quote. Well done LBJ. This is why you're the king.

I agree the most sought-after record should be rings. But if it were, Bill Russell would get way more love and would be the clear cut #1. He's got way more rings than any top 100 player (with the exception of his own teammates) and he clearly the best player on those teams and in the league.

Scoring is king these days for better or worse especially because it is a singular stat that we can attribute directly to a given player.

To most players, scoring = more money.

To the public, scoring = more popularity.

Ppl remember Babe, Bonds, Aaron, McGwire, Sosa, etc... Not many ppl give as much love to Yogi Berra.

But still, the NBA scoring record is a huge achievement. I'm not sure anyone will reach it for a long time even with more scoring across the league. You've gotta average 24.5 ppg for 20 years, assuming no missed games. With all the "load managing" going on or if someone gets hurt, you're looking at 22-24 years.

And it's even more unlikely someone will surpass LeBron's total points (reg season plus playoffs) under the current format.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

I agree the most sought-after record should be rings. But if it were, Bill Russell would get way more love and would be the clear cut #1. He's got way more rings than any top 100 player (with the exception of his own teammates) and he clearly the best player on those teams and in the league.

Scoring is king these days for better or worse especially because it is a singular stat that we can attribute directly to a given player.

To most players, scoring = more money.

To the public, scoring = more popularity.

Ppl remember Babe, Bonds, Aaron, McGwire, Sosa, etc... Not many ppl give as much love to Yogi Berra.

But still, the NBA scoring record is a huge achievement. I'm not sure anyone will reach it for a long time even with more scoring across the league. You've gotta average 24.5 ppg for 20 years, assuming no missed games. With all the "load managing" going on or if someone gets hurt, you're looking at 22-24 years.

And it's even more unlikely someone will surpass LeBron's total points (reg season plus playoffs) under the current format.

In baseball, counting stats are important. Not so much in FB/BSKB where rings are what matters. It's always been that way.


Plus, people use the argument there were less teams back when Bill Russell played, so it's skewed. This might not be fair depending on your perspective, but it is what it is.


I agree, even with increased scoring being what it is today, no one will match lebron's numbers when all is said and done.

[HBMC]

Originally Posted by YayNJ

It's the society we've found ourselves in unfortunately, even people that have no interest in it (the vast majority) we're all dragged in to the pathetic "culture war".

If you don't understand why the "culture war" exists you cannot act like you're above it.

Dialectical framing of everything is why everything has to be endlessly dressed with politics. Accepting the premise to this framing is why so many braindead athletes proffer barely intelligible opinions.

The smart ones don't speak on it.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

Plus, people use the argument there were less teams back when Bill Russell played, so it's skewed. This might not be fair depending on your perspective, but it is what it is.

In an all-time draft, where is Russell selected? (If someone says No. 6, they're funny.)

In the 2022-23 NBA season, which players do you select over Russell for your team? Assume he gets the same nutrition/training players today get, etc. etc.

I think I'm comfy with my #2 all-time ranking behind MJ & ahead of Bron. I'unno, sometimes I think MJ had some front-office luck, era luck, and Russell plopped down onto those Bulls teams could lead them to lots of titles. Flopping and pseudo-Russellian social activism aside, Bron also might do just as well being plopped down on that Bulls team (in an era where flopping was a Reggie Miller specialty but not a wide-league ethos iirc).

He was a player-coach, too, for whatever that's worth if you assume Phil Jackson could do head coaching duties.

edit: I think I've mentioned, the '11 Finals loss is a major strike against Bron's GOAT case; it's up for debate whether he made up for that (GOAT-wise) with future Finals heroics. And the terms "GOAT discussion" and "Bron" do go together. In fact I would say there are 3 serious GOAT candidates, the ones mentioned already (not Reggie Miller lol). The next 5 of Wilt, Kareem, Larry, Magic, and Timmy don't IMO have the level of resume of these three, all things considered.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

Most won't really appreciate LeBron until he's retired.

As others have said, it's not just that he's still in the NBA at 38, but he's playing at an All-NBA level. And he's not lumbering up and down the court like an old TD or Shaquille (or even an older Kidd or Dre Miller). He's playing with a lot of speed. He picks his spots now, but he's still got that burst when he needs it.

Harden is still effective but his game has aged. He can't just blow by anymore and he's like 5 years younger than LeBron. Shows you how taking care of your body can extend your career.

What exact epiphany are Lebron critics going to have after he's retired versus what they feel about him now?

Are they going to suddenly look back at his career one day and think "hmm, that Lebron, I think I actually like him! What in the world was I thinking when he was an active player?"

Is he going to save the world after his basketball career is over and make people reflect fondly about his career? Or is he going to be slowly forgotten due to out of sight out of mind.

Chances are high he will do something post-retirement that will continue to make you

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by HBMC

If you don't understand why the "culture war" exists you cannot act like you're above it.

Dialectical framing of everything is why everything has to be endlessly dressed with politics. Accepting the premise to this framing is why so many braindead athletes proffer barely intelligible opinions.

The smart ones don't speak on it.

Technical point:
Dialectic is about overcoming dubious oppositions/dualities/dichotomies. It's one of Aristotle's philosophical methods covered in the Organon, the Topics specifically.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

What exact epiphany are Lebron critics going to have after he's retired versus what they feel about him now?

Are they going to suddenly look back at his career one day and think "hmm, that Lebron, I think I actually like him! What in the world was I thinking when he was an active player?"

Is he going to save the world after his basketball career is over and make people reflect fondly about his career? Or is he going to be slowly forgotten due to out of sight out of mind.

Chances are high he will do something post-retirement that will continue to make you

This gets said a lot and I always wonder the answer too. What exactly will I miss or suddenly appreciate? I can’t think of anything. It is what it is at this point. I’m not gonna change my mind. I understand the other side won’t either. Funny the Lakers finally beat a good team the other day when he was out. But he will just keep putting up 40 against Charlotte and Orlando or Detroit and espn will keep writing slurp articles. They make me burp.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

This gets said a lot and I always wonder the answer too. What exactly will I miss or suddenly appreciate? I can’t think of anything. It is what it is at this point. I’m not gonna change my mind. I understand the other side won’t either. Funny the Lakers finally beat a good team the other day when he was out. But he will just keep putting up 40 against Charlotte and Orlando or Detroit and espn will keep writing slurp articles. They make me burp.

Bron moon bois continue to act like he is some hidden gem unrecognized needle in a haystack secret card investment that will send them to early retirement one day.

They really don’t understand the concept that his entire legacy, his entire career has long been priced into his cards.

Many of his cards have tanked over 90% since the pandemic pump, and they still are getting ready to tell their bosses they quit after he retires, when in reality they should be getting those Golden Arches applications prepared when they realize the moon profitz aren’t there when they try to sell their collections in retirement.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

This gets said a lot and I always wonder the answer too. What exactly will I miss or suddenly appreciate? I can’t think of anything. It is what it is at this point. I’m not gonna change my mind. I understand the other side won’t either. Funny the Lakers finally beat a good team the other day when he was out. But he will just keep putting up 40 against Charlotte and Orlando or Detroit and espn will keep writing slurp articles. They make me burp.

Agree 100%. Both sides have their minds made up, and that's fine. He isn't going to do anything post retirement that is going to change anyone. He will always be polarizing and will continue to do the same stuff that make some people dislike him and some people adore him.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Bron moon bois continue to act like he is some hidden gem unrecognized needle in a haystack secret card investment that will send them to early retirement one day.

They really don’t understand the concept that his entire legacy, his entire career has long been priced into his cards.

Many of his cards have tanked over 90% since the pandemic pump, and they still are getting ready to tell their bosses they quit after he retires, when in reality they should be getting those Golden Arches applications prepared when they realize the moon profitz aren’t there when they try to sell their collections in retirement.

You've said this multiple times and it never gets tired.


In regards to Lebron, I got got in early so I'm feeling pretty safe about my investments.

[dream34]

He lost in the 2007 Finals! (Yes, but he made it there at 22 years old...)

He lost in the 2011 Finals! (Yes, on a new team but no excuse here. Sometimes players don't perform...)

He has a 4-6 Finals Record! (Yes, but he made the NBA FINALS 10 TIMES!...AND played against teams with 3+ HOFers near their primes 8 of the 10 times!)

He can't shoot as well as my guy! (Yes, but still a better 3pt shooter than MJ & Kobe)

He's a bulldozer! Just a bully on the court! (Yes, but all NBA players rave about his basketball mind...)

I know more about basketball than NBA players! (Yes, yes you do...)

Jersey Sales are Fake! (Yes, yes they are...)

NO ONE will ever like this guy! (Yes, NBA ballots are fake too...)

He's so selfish and greedy! (Yes, he hasn't helped everyone just the people around him...)

He can't speak correctly! (Yes, he does not have a college education like a lot of us. Then again I'm sure he'd have a field day critiquing our basketball game...)

He's over the hill and can only beat weak teams! (Yes, at 38 he can only put up 40 point, 8 assist games against weak teams now...)

What a loser! (Yes, he has lost many games...)

I'm right! I'm right! I'm RIGHT! (Yes, yes you are...)


Lebron has changed and developed so well over the years we are now criticizing the validity of jersey sales numbers and all-star votes as well as the way he speaks. Some people are just amazing.

Whether he's #1 on your list, #2 or #11 on your all-time list...not being able to enjoy the sheer brilliance of the complete basketball player we were gifted with is just a waste of time. Many say he was the most athletically gifted basketball player ever. Many also say he was the smartest basketball player of a generation. Both in one guy.

It'll be over soon. 38 years old. 1,661 NBA Games.

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

What exact epiphany are Lebron critics going to have after he's retired versus what they feel about him now?

Are they going to suddenly look back at his career one day and think "hmm, that Lebron, I think I actually like him! What in the world was I thinking when he was an active player?"

Is he going to save the world after his basketball career is over and make people reflect fondly about his career? Or is he going to be slowly forgotten due to out of sight out of mind.

Chances are high he will do something post-retirement that will continue to make you

I guess haters are gonna hate. But over time, casual fans that aren't super invested either way usually look back on his career with fondness. That "wish I saw him" mentality.

Ppl that thought he was good now will think he was great. Ppl that thought he was great will think he transcended the game. As others have said, they'll add some Paul Bunyan-type mythos as time passes, even though all these guys are human. MJ didn't hit every game winning shot he took but it feels like he did. We'll forget Brady ever threw any ducks because every pass that left his hands was perfect. Kobe was a pure assassin through and through even though those last few years were pretty dismal.

Everyone today looks at Wilt's amazing 50/25 season but the players themselves voted Russell as MVP that year by a landslide. I think Russell got like 50 1st place vote and Wilt got less than 10.

But ask most ppl today who had a better season in 1961-62 and they'll say Wilt.

20 years after LeBron retires, ppl will appreciate him more than they do today.

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by dream34

Lebron has changed and developed so well over the years we are now criticizing the validity of jersey sales numbers and all-star votes as well as the way he speaks. Some people are just amazing.

Whether he's #1 on your list, #2 or #11 on your all-time list...not being able to enjoy the sheer brilliance of the complete basketball player we were gifted with is just a waste of time. Many say he was the most athletically gifted basketball player ever. Many also say he was the smartest basketball player of a generation. Both in one guy.

It'll be over soon. 38 years old. 1,661 NBA Games.

The jersey sales just don't make sense to me.

If I saw that Paolo/Jalen Green/Ant-Man were top 10 in jersey sales, that makes sense to me because most ppl probably haven't bought their jerseys yet since they're young players. But LeBron/Curry have been in the league 10+ years.

I grew up in the 90s as a huge Bulls fan. But I just have 1 MJ Bulls jersey and 1 MJ USA jersey. I get that there are so many (too many) different styles and colorways now but do LeBron fans really need to buy a/multiple LeBron jersey every year?

But yeah...let's enjoy LeBron while we can.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by dream34

Whether he's #1 on your list, #2 or #11 on your all-time list...not being able to enjoy the sheer brilliance of the complete basketball player we were gifted with is just a waste of time. Many say he was the most athletically gifted basketball player ever. Many also say he was the smartest basketball player of a generation. Both in one guy.

I don’t care. He is a disingenuous, nauseating, hypocrite off the court. For me, that supersedes anything he could ever do on the court.

Mel Gibson is a brilliant actor and director. But the guy is so disgusting that he got cancelled before cancel culture was even a thing. Is it the same waste of time if I don’t enjoy his movies?

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

I guess haters are gonna hate. But over time, casual fans that aren't super invested either way usually look back on his career with fondness. That "wish I saw him" mentality.

Ppl that thought he was good now will think he was great. Ppl that thought he was great will think he transcended the game. As others have said, they'll add some Paul Bunyan-type mythos as time passes, even though all these guys are human. MJ didn't hit every game winning shot he took but it feels like he did. We'll forget Brady ever threw any ducks because every pass that left his hands was perfect. Kobe was a pure assassin through and through even though those last few years were pretty dismal.

Everyone today looks at Wilt's amazing 50/25 season but the players themselves voted Russell as MVP that year by a landslide. I think Russell got like 50 1st place vote and Wilt got less than 10.

But ask most ppl today who had a better season in 1961-62 and they'll say Wilt.

20 years after LeBron retires, ppl will appreciate him more than they do today.

But my question was what exact Paul Bunyan type moments will we remember to change our minds? He did do well to come back against the warriors and take that title, but outside that miraculous comeback, the only things I will remember are:

1.”king” James before he got to the NBA - what an egomaniac
2. The decision, which was horrible, horrible, horrible
3. Buying rings with super teams
4. All the political Mumbo jumbo
5. Leflop, lebrick and lechoke.

Not exactly a list of Paul Bunyan moments.

Minus his on the court career achievements, his legacy will be his failure to win more rings despite his supreme talent and his complete ignorance of his own social ineptitude, which people will not be able to forget or forgive.

History will see him as a megalomaniac. And of course, you (Bron bois in general) are who you collect.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

I guess haters are gonna hate. But over time, casual fans that aren't super invested either way usually look back on his career with fondness. That "wish I saw him" mentality.

Ppl that thought he was good now will think he was great. Ppl that thought he was great will think he transcended the game. As others have said, they'll add some Paul Bunyan-type mythos as time passes, even though all these guys are human. MJ didn't hit every game winning shot he took but it feels like he did. We'll forget Brady ever threw any ducks because every pass that left his hands was perfect. Kobe was a pure assassin through and through even though those last few years were pretty dismal.

Everyone today looks at Wilt's amazing 50/25 season but the players themselves voted Russell as MVP that year by a landslide. I think Russell got like 50 1st place vote and Wilt got less than 10.

But ask most ppl today who had a better season in 1961-62 and they'll say Wilt.

20 years after LeBron retires, ppl will appreciate him more than they do today.

You would think that but that’s a baseball mentality. Fondness and nostalgia. What I see in basketball is any particular group of fans thinking humans have evolved in 10 years to some super group that nobody else could ever compete against because they are so good.

It’s always who’s coming next. And this player and that wouldn’t be able to play today. and it’s always said with a slant towards today being better. Today’s basketball to my eyes is unwatchable most of the time.

I’m a nobody. I don’t know more than anyone. But that’s my opinion.

In terms of Lebron. I don’t care about this scoring thing. To me he’s an all around player and his 30,35, or 40,000-10,000-10,000 career triple double is right there with cy young winning 511 games. Some of it is situational on that he could come out of high school and be lucky with his health and yeah I know he prepares his body. But some luck is involved to be injury free for that long. That’s what I appreciate. He’s left his mark on the game. And that mark I would bet won’t be touched for 200 years if that.

I just can’t ignore the negative things I’ve seen. It’s weird. If I was looking at blind resumes he has a strong case for #1 ever.

But for my eyes he is 100% not one of the 5 best basketball players I’ve ever seen play basketball the way I look at the game.

Again, I’m a nobody. I realize that’s not blowouts opinion. I don’t care.

One man’s opinion.

[oldgoldy97]

So there’s jersey buying fraud going on.

For what reason?

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

But my question was what exact Paul Bunyan type moments will we remember. He did do well to come back against the warriors and take that title, but outside that miraculous comeback, the only things I will remember are:

1.”king” James before he got to the NBA - what an egomaniac
2. The decision, which was horrible, horrible, horrible
3. Buying rings with super teams
4. All the political Mumbo jumbo
5. Leflop, lebrick and lechoke.

Not exactly a list of Paul Bunyan moments.

Coming back from 3-1 down against a 73-win team to give the Cavs their first championship might be the biggest achievement in the history of the NBA (obviously debatable but it's up there). That Warriors team was likely going down as one of the greatest of all time before the Cavs stormed back.

How many players have multiple moments bigger than that?

I'm not trying to specifically change your opinion on LeBron. I just think in 20 years, ppl will look back and think LeBron was amazing. That doesn't mean they'll think he was right about every thing he ever said. But in 50 years, I'd be very surprised if he's not in most top 5 lists.

Ppl just have a way of romanticizing the past. It's not always rational or objective. Look at Kobe. He passed tragically, but most ppl just remember him fondly. They don't/rarely bring up the negative stuff about his game and they don't bring up the off-court issues. But he was more polarizing than LeBron.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

Coming back from 3-1 down against a 73-win team to give the Cavs their first championship might be the biggest achievement in the history of the NBA (obviously debatable but it's up there). That Warriors team was likely going down as one of the greatest of all time before the Cavs stormed back.

How many players have multiple moments bigger than that?

I'm not trying to specifically change your opinion on LeBron. I just think in 20 years, ppl will look back and think LeBron was amazing. That doesn't mean they'll think he was right about every thing he ever said. But in 50 years, I'd be very surprised if he's not in most top 5 lists.

Ppl just have a way of romanticizing the past. It's not always rational or objective. Look at Kobe. He passed tragically, but most ppl just remember him fondly. They don't/rarely bring up the negative stuff about his game and they don't bring up the off-court issues. But he was more polarizing than LeBron.

The problem is, lebron’s personal setbacks FAR outweigh his on the court achievements. I wouldn’t call his finals comeback the greatest thing that ever happened in the nba, but I’m not going to downplay his stats or talent, either.

Wilt chamberlain was a prolific scorer, Karl Malone, Kareem Abdul jabbar, Oscar Robertson - all some of the greatest career stat achievers of all time.

I still have no interest in buying any of their cards, in general, and I certainly won’t in the future, just as in the case of Bron.

[dream34]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

Coming back from 3-1 down against a 73-win team to give the Cavs their first championship might be the biggest achievement in the history of the NBA (obviously debatable but it's up there). That Warriors team was likely going down as one of the greatest of all time before the Cavs stormed back.

To add to this, I think the story of Draymond calling KD right after the game to pair the #2 & #3 players in the league (Curry & KD) together to take down the #1 (Lebron) is something that will have to go down in Lebron's eventual story. They won 73 games and they still felt the need to bring in KD.

Imagine Stockton & Malone getting Shaq to replace Ostertag/Foster for their 2nd go around at MJ & the Bulls...

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

You would think that but that’s a baseball mentality. Fondness and nostalgia. What I see in basketball is any particular group of fans thinking humans have evolved in 10 years to some super group that nobody else could ever compete against because they are so good.

It’s always who’s coming next. And this player and that wouldn’t be able to play today. and it’s always said with a slant towards today being better. Today’s basketball to my eyes is unwatchable most of the time.

I’m a nobody. I don’t know more than anyone. But that’s my opinion.

In terms of Lebron. I don’t care about this scoring thing. To me he’s an all around player and his 30,35, or 40,000-10,000-10,000 career triple double is right there with cy young winning 511 games. Some of it is situational on that he could come out of high school and be lucky with his health and yeah I know he prepares his body. But some luck is involved to be injury free for that long. That’s what I appreciate. He’s left his mark on the game. And that mark I would bet won’t be touched for 200 years if that.

I just can’t ignore the negative things I’ve seen. It’s weird. If I was looking at blind resumes he has a strong case for #1 ever.

But for my eyes he is 100% not one of the 5 best basketball players I’ve ever seen play basketball the way I look at the game.

Again, I’m a nobody. I realize that’s not blowouts opinion. I don’t care.

One man’s opinion.

Believe me, way more than one other shares this opinion. Very well stated.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

The problem is, lebron’s personal setbacks FAR outweigh his on the court achievements. I wouldn’t call his finals comeback the greatest thing that ever happened in the nba, but I’m not going to downplay his stats or talent, either.

Wilt chamberlain was a prolific scorer, Karl Malone, Kareem Abdul jabbar, Oscar Robertson - all some of the greatest career stat achievers of all time.

I still have no interest in buying any of their cards, in general, and I certainly won’t in the future, just as in the case of Bron.

In the minds of several blowout users----sure.


In the minds of fans, his fellow players, former players who have played against him/for him, he's been one of the all time greats. And to put up his numbers at 38 y/o are very impressive. Even against scrub teams. I don't see the same dig against Luka/Giannis when they drop 40+ on the Magic.



Personally? I think he's made some MASSIVE mistakes. But as a player he's arguably top 3 all time and in the minds of many top 2 and even the GOAT.

and before you fry me: HE is NOT the GOAT IMO.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

So there’s jersey buying fraud going on.

For what reason?

because the haters minds are blown Lebron has the most popular selling jersey so it's "fake"

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

Coming back from 3-1 down against a 73-win team to give the Cavs their first championship might be the biggest achievement in the history of the NBA (obviously debatable but it's up there). That Warriors team was likely going down as one of the greatest of all time before the Cavs stormed back.

How many players have multiple moments bigger than that?

I'm not trying to specifically change your opinion on LeBron. I just think in 20 years, ppl will look back and think LeBron was amazing. That doesn't mean they'll think he was right about every thing he ever said. But in 50 years, I'd be very surprised if he's not in most top 5 lists.

Ppl just have a way of romanticizing the past. It's not always rational or objective. Look at Kobe. He passed tragically, but most ppl just remember him fondly. They don't/rarely bring up the negative stuff about his game and they don't bring up the off-court issues. But he was more polarizing than LeBron.

Originally Posted by dream34

To add to this, I think the story of Draymond calling KD right after the game to pair the #2 & #3 players in the league (Curry & KD) together to take down the #1 (Lebron) is something that will have to go down in Lebron's eventual story. They won 73 games and they still felt the need to bring in KD.

Imagine Stockton & Malone getting Shaq to replace Ostertag/Foster for their 2nd go around at MJ & the Bulls...

Just focusing on basketball, Did LeBron James play the 3 greatest games ever?




Starting at 23:50, see what most people (voters) outside of BO think!

[Ericc5Bears]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

In an all-time draft, where is Russell selected? (If someone says No. 6, they're funny.)

In the 2022-23 NBA season, which players do you select over Russell for your team? Assume he gets the same nutrition/training players today get, etc. etc.

I think I'm comfy with my #2 all-time ranking behind MJ & ahead of Bron. I'unno, sometimes I think MJ had some front-office luck, era luck, and Russell plopped down onto those Bulls teams could lead them to lots of titles. Flopping and pseudo-Russellian social activism aside, Bron also might do just as well being plopped down on that Bulls team (in an era where flopping was a Reggie Miller specialty but not a wide-league ethos iirc).

He was a player-coach, too, for whatever that's worth if you assume Phil Jackson could do head coaching duties.

edit: I think I've mentioned, the '11 Finals loss is a major strike against Bron's GOAT case; it's up for debate whether he made up for that (GOAT-wise) with future Finals heroics. And the terms "GOAT discussion" and "Bron" do go together. In fact I would say there are 3 serious GOAT candidates, the ones mentioned already (not Reggie Miller lol). The next 5 of Wilt, Kareem, Larry, Magic, and Timmy don't IMO have the level of resume of these three, all things considered.

Bill Russell averaged 15 PPG on 44% from the field and 56% from the line in an era where the average center was 6'9 230 and had a full time job other than basketball.

He very well might be the greatest defensive player of all time and was the best player of his era, but even with modern nutrition he would be borderline useless on offense. He would basically be a smaller version of Hakeem without any of the offensive skill or maybe a bigger draymond green would be a better comparison. I wouldn't take him top 25 in an all-time redraft.