Topps out---Fanatics in

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

It's not going to create more collectors when they jack box prices up even more due the massive amount of money they paid to get the licenses.

Just a year ago you couldn't walk out your front door and get Retail at Walmart or Target. My LCS that serves four decent sized towns ordered 8 cases(5 Hobby,3 Jumbo) of FLAGSHIP TOPPS from their distributor. They got 4 hobby boxes and 2 Jumbo boxes total from their distributor with the sorry, we dont have more. But the following week, they could fill the order at 2-3x the price. Prizm basketball is supposed to be a $200 box at most. Distributors wanted $1000+. I would wager LCS's would like to see a change so they can get customers in the door. Sure, they may pay $400 for the Fanatics Prizm basketball box now but if they can guarantee pre-sells, it's a win-win.

Sure, Fanatics could cut LCS's out entirely but people with bigger degrees than mine would likely see that as a losing proposition in the long run.

[SearchPatrol]

I know you value affordable and accessible cards in the hobby, and I do not see future cards being affordable. As untenable as it is today ($390 for Triple Threads ), I see it being worse with Fanatics.[/QUOTE]

See, this is what I don't understand. For the most part baseball card collectors seem money smart. But TOPPS must be shaking it's head... Why do people continue to pay all this money for WAX. What's the average best hit out of Threads -- a John Smoltz Auto??? I mean to pay all that money for Maybe $75- $100 back. I don't get it. But as long as "collectors" keep buying, Fanatics will be OK.

You would "think" at some point people would be so burned, they would wait until price went down. But, no.

[JRX]

Because its gambling.

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[SearchPatrol]

Originally Posted by JRX

Because its gambling.

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It's worse than gambling.

[baseballbunez]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Just a year ago you couldn't walk out your front door and get Retail at Walmart or Target. My LCS that serves four decent sized towns ordered 8 cases(5 Hobby,3 Jumbo) of FLAGSHIP TOPPS from their distributor. They got 4 hobby boxes and 2 Jumbo boxes total from their distributor with the sorry, we dont have more. But the following week, they could fill the order at 2-3x the price. Prizm basketball is supposed to be a $200 box at most. Distributors wanted $1000+. I would wager LCS's would like to see a change so they can get customers in the door. Sure, they may pay $400 for the Fanatics Prizm basketball box now but if they can guarantee pre-sells, it's a win-win.

Sure, Fanatics could cut LCS's out entirely but people with bigger degrees than mine would likely see that as a losing proposition in the long run.

If that is all they got, that is all they earned. Not sure where this mentality came from that what someone asks for is what they should get.

Direct cost on products is irrelevant after getting what you earned, after that it is market based pricing. Always has been. You can bet the house that if market rate on boxes are $1k that Fanatics is going to be charging $1k, they didn’t pay up for the licenses to instill some strange strategy to ensure box prices remain cheap to LCS and give them access to product in whatever quantities they want at same rates regardless of what the market is. Talk about a pipe dream for LCS owners, who in all actuality are likely going to get hammered the worst in all this.

[rwperu34]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Can you tell me what exactly has crashed back to 2018?

Baseball has crashed all the way back to February 2021.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by baseballbunez

If that is all they got, that is all they earned. Not sure where this mentality came from that what someone asks for is what they should get.

Talk about a pipe dream for LCS owners, who in all actuality are likely going to get hammered the worst in all this.

It's flagship dude, not National Treasures. That's a good point though, distributors turned into retailers with the whole "market price" mentality. Fanatics can clearly see that and phase them out comfortably. LCS's will still have place in the hobby. I just dont see the need for distributors anymore and that's a great thing.

[Stech36]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

It's flagship dude, not National Treasures. That's a good point though, distributors turned into retailers with the whole "market price" mentality. Fanatics can clearly see that and phase them out comfortably. LCS's will still have place in the hobby. I just dont see the need for distributors anymore and that's a great thing.

Not one thing Fanatics has said indicates that there will still be LCS’s

[JRX]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

It's flagship dude, not National Treasures. That's a good point though, distributors turned into retailers with the whole "market price" mentality. Fanatics can clearly see that and phase them out comfortably. LCS's will still have place in the hobby. I just dont see the need for distributors anymore and that's a great thing.

Fanatics will be the distributor and make that piece of the pie. If it makes you happy that fanatics makes the money instead of the current distributors, ok I guess, but if you think you're going to get that part of the price back, you're not.

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[baseballbunez]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

It's flagship dude, not National Treasures. That's a good point though, distributors turned into retailers with the whole "market price" mentality. Fanatics can clearly see that and phase them out comfortably. LCS's will still have place in the hobby. I just dont see the need for distributors anymore and that's a great thing.

I get it that it is only flagship, but there are so many more accounts these days that outside of dramatic production increases the smaller accounts or accounts who don't support every line will get cut.

You seem to have some pretty set notions about distributors, which unfortunately are pretty far from what is actually going on. Just because your LCS doesn't know how to manage that side of things well it appears, does not mean distributors are this evil entity, sorry to tell you.

Fanatics doesn't see need for distributors either apparently, so you're in same boat there. But they also REALLY don't see need for LCS

[mcwildcats]

Originally Posted by Stech36

Not one thing Fanatics has said indicates that there will still be LCS’s

Will there still be sports cards sold in-store at Wally and Target? That's what I'm most curious about. I just assume Fanatics would just start distributing themselves directly to those stores and not cut them out entirely as well.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

By “us”, I think you’re mostly referring to folks who rely on the hobby for some degree of income.

As you say in a roundabout way, Topps lost its license because it was weak. Nobody disputes that.

If Fanatics were as greedy as you say, it wouldn’t have vastly overpaid for licensing.

You’re saying when Fanatics will destroy the middlemen it will destroy the hobby itself? Seems that “improve” is the better word

By us, I mean collectors. You know the real reason the hobby began. I know we are vastly outnumbered here on BO by the flippers and money makers, but I would wager tens of thousands still exist all over.

I am all for getting rid of distributors and having boxes go from the manufacturer to brick and mortar shops and the large online stores. If Fanatics sell direct, collectors aren't even going to sniff a box unless we resort to bots.

Greed doesn't eliminate you from paying a lot of money for something. You have to pay money to make money. They had to give the MLB and MLBPA a great incentive to move away from Topps and their 70+ year relationship. That incentive was lots of cash and a stake in the company. I guarantee that cards will be more expensive as a result so they can recoup their losses. No company spends a ton of money or sees their costs increase without passing it on to the consumer.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Just a year ago you couldn't walk out your front door and get Retail at Walmart or Target. My LCS that serves four decent sized towns ordered 8 cases(5 Hobby,3 Jumbo) of FLAGSHIP TOPPS from their distributor. They got 4 hobby boxes and 2 Jumbo boxes total from their distributor with the sorry, we dont have more. But the following week, they could fill the order at 2-3x the price. Prizm basketball is supposed to be a $200 box at most. Distributors wanted $1000+. I would wager LCS's would like to see a change so they can get customers in the door. Sure, they may pay $400 for the Fanatics Prizm basketball box now but if they can guarantee pre-sells, it's a win-win.

Sure, Fanatics could cut LCS's out entirely but people with bigger degrees than mine would likely see that as a losing proposition in the long run.

I would love to see some statistics (probably not possible) on who was buying those retail boxes. I know it wasn't this collector as I had to continue to work during the pandemic and couldn't stalk reps until they put the product on the shelf. The last year and a half was a totally different beast retail wise than we have ever seen. Too many people sitting at home locked down with extra stimulus cash saw a way to make extra money and they took it. Now, retails stores are full of product again. Where did all of those people go who were buying it and flipping it?

[baseballbunez]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

I would love to see some statistics (probably not possible) on who was buying those retail boxes. I know it wasn't this collector as I had to continue to work during the pandemic and couldn't stalk reps until they put the product on the shelf. The last year and a half was a totally different beast retail wise than we have ever seen. Too many people sitting at home locked down with extra stimulus cash saw a way to make extra money and they took it. Now, retails stores are full of product again. Where did all of those people go who were buying it and flipping it?

It was a combination of what you’re saying plus shortages on retail side. During midst of pandemic the manufacturers had to focus efforts on hobby SKUs, the retail side was made but severely limited relative to normal operations on most of those products just to get them out the door. They’ve definitely got their operations back up and running on nearly all the retail now, as retail side accounts are getting full orders plus extras nowadays they’re making so much of it

[80s Kid]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

By us, I mean collectors. You know the real reason the hobby began. I know we are vastly outnumbered here on BO by the flippers and money makers, but I would wager tens of thousands still exist all over.

I am all for getting rid of distributors and having boxes go from the manufacturer to brick and mortar shops and the large online stores. If Fanatics sell direct, collectors aren't even going to sniff a box unless we resort to bots.

My perspective, over produced and over priced boxes selling to flippers would be a good thing for collectors. Instead of wasting money on boxes, wait until those flippers sell the players/teams we collect for a loss.

Of all the potential negatives people keep repeating, as a team collector, over production sounds the best to me as it means more sellers, and therefore easier to just purchase what I want.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by 80s Kid

My perspective, over produced and over priced boxes selling to flippers would be a good thing for collectors. Instead of wasting money on boxes, wait until those flippers sell the players/teams we collect for a loss.

Of all the potential negatives people keep repeating, as a team collector, over production sounds the best to me as it means more sellers, and therefore easier to just purchase what I want.

Yeah, I have had a huge issue trying to purchase team sets since the pandemic began. I'm not sure if the usual case guys are getting squeezed by the distributors or people just are selling things differently. It used to be the day a product was released there were at least 4 people selling Yankee team sets of every release. Now, I have to wait a week or two in to find one seller if at all.

[Zauron]

Originally Posted by mcwildcats

Will there still be sports cards sold in-store at Wally and Target? That's what I'm most curious about. I just assume Fanatics would just start distributing themselves directly to those stores and not cut them out entirely as well.

My concern, is if it is bought strictly from Fanatics, what is stopping people from just botting Fanatics entire allotment/production?

You think it's bad people can bot Target to buy 1,000+ Absolute football mega boxes, what will happen if a bot could buy out half of the production of a product through Fanatics?

[auctionjmm]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

Yeah, I have had a huge issue trying to purchase team sets since the pandemic began. I'm not sure if the usual case guys are getting squeezed by the distributors or people just are selling things differently. It used to be the day a product was released there were at least 4 people selling Yankee team sets of every release. Now, I have to wait a week or two in to find one seller if at all.

I was one of those sellers.

The base rookie craze killed team sets. When Series 1 came out and you had Mountcastle, Bohm, Pache, Dalbec, Madrigal, Carlson all selling for $5-$10 EACH, forget team sets. Because the truth is most team set buyers aren't going to want to pay market value, and I can't blame them. A Phillies collector who usually buys his team set for $5 isn't going to want to pay $15 just because Bohm is the hot name that year. Now that all those prices have cooled down there might be a fair market for team sets but sellers may not want to go back and sort old product to sell in teams.

[mcwildcats]

Originally Posted by Zauron

My concern, is if it is bought strictly from Fanatics, what is stopping people from just botting Fanatics entire allotment/production?

You think it's bad people can bot Target to buy 1,000+ Absolute football mega boxes, what will happen if a bot could buy out half of the production of a product through Fanatics?

Yes, absolutely! That's why I'm hoping we'll still be able to buy product in-store. If it all moves solely online with Fanatics, that's going to absolutely suck having to deal with the bots, unless they have some kind of solution (not banking on this). Worst case if it's all online and bot issues remain, I'll probably just have to change my sealed collecting habits and just focus on buying older sealed products online.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by mcwildcats

Yes, absolutely! That's why I'm hoping we'll still be able to buy product in-store. If it all moves solely online with Fanatics, that's going to absolutely suck having to deal with the bots, unless they have some kind of solution (not banking on this). Worst case if it's all online and bot issues remain, I'll probably just have to change my sealed collecting habits and just focus on buying older sealed products online.

They will sell it to their own bots first.

[auctionjmm]

I think too many people are severely underestimating the size of what Fanatics' operation will be once they have all three sports. This is an expensive venture for them and they are going to need to, at the very least, match what Panini/Topps are presently doing both in terms of revenue and number of products, and will likely need to exceed that.

My point is, people are talking like Fanatics will just do everything in house and handle their own shipping and run some little YouTube channel for breaks and they won't need retailers or distributors or LCS or whatever.... There is NO CHANCE. Fanatics is going to need as much help as they can get and using existing distrubition and retail channels will absolutely be a part of their plan. They may transition SOME of it in-house to improve profits and there will certainly be some direct to consumer products and releases much like Panini and Topps are already doing with their online exclusives.

But I can assure you, Fanatics is not going to house and ship every single pack, hanger, blaster, retail, hobby, jumbo, (add misc.) SKU, for every product from all 3 sports for roughly 3 products per week. Ain't happening unless they buy a state, name it Fanatics, and have the residents all work for them.

[JRX]

They don't need to make what topps and panini do IF they move it in house. They can produce less at a higher margin by taking the distributor cut and the psa cut and the ebay cut etc etc. If they are to keep the current setup then yes they would need to print far more to make up for the higher licensing costs. That seems unsustainable to me which makes me think the former is far more likely.

[80s Kid]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

I think too many people are severely underestimating the size of what Fanatics' operation will be once they have all three sports. This is an expensive venture for them and they are going to need to, at the very least, match what Panini/Topps are presently doing both in terms of revenue and number of products, and will likely need to exceed that.

My point is, people are talking like Fanatics will just do everything in house and handle their own shipping and run some little YouTube channel for breaks and they won't need retailers or distributors or LCS or whatever.... There is NO CHANCE. Fanatics is going to need as much help as they can get and using existing distrubition and retail channels will absolutely be a part of their plan. They may transition SOME of it in-house to improve profits and there will certainly be some direct to consumer products and releases much like Panini and Topps are already doing with their online exclusives.

But I can assure you, Fanatics is not going to house and ship every single pack, hanger, blaster, retail, hobby, jumbo, (add misc.) SKU, for every product from all 3 sports for roughly 3 products per week. Ain't happening unless they buy a state, name it Fanatics, and have the residents all work for them.

Also, and this has been pointed about before, Fanatics already sells product through other storefronts.

At the cost they are paying, they need to expand the market, not shrink it. The most profitable way to get started is still to purchase one of the existing card companies. It will cost a lot of money for them to start from scratch. And if they buy an existing company, there is no reason to immediately stop the current distribution processes.

[mossoholic]

Originally Posted by Zauron

My concern, is if it is bought strictly from Fanatics, what is stopping people from just botting Fanatics entire allotment/production?

You think it's bad people can bot Target to buy 1,000+ Absolute football mega boxes, what will happen if a bot could buy out half of the production of a product through Fanatics?

The bots and discord members have bought virtually every box of in demand product since 2020 Prizm football Fanatics mega boxes from Fanatics. Not counting the small amount Fanatics reps sell us long term customers. So what you're saying may happen has already been happening for close to a year.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by SearchPatrol

See, this is what I don't understand. For the most part baseball card collectors seem money smart.

Sports card collectors are generally pretty "money smart".

Sport cards gamblers/investors much less so.

And it's the latter group that is driving wax prices these days, because they buy probably 70-80% of most product releases.

It's the same group of people who think Bitcoin is a viable currency, pump "meme" stocks all day, and spend gobs on money on NFTs.