PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[pspa123]

On 54 the Musial winner posted this.

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Peter - sellers like Brent, Steve Hart and some others are straight shooters. They build successful businesses because they are trustworthy. No different than my company taking care of our customers/consumers because we stand behind our product, you have to for repeat long term business. Brent does not hesitate to tell me to pass on one of his auction cards if he feels I should be patient and wait for a little stronger example knowing my goals and tastes. Sometimes my itchy trigger does not want to listen to him but I almost always do.

[LSUNatChamps]

Originally Posted by pspa123

On 54 the Musial winner posted this.

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Peter - sellers like Brent, Steve Hart and some others are straight shooters. They build successful businesses because they are trustworthy. No different than my company taking care of our customers/consumers because we stand behind our product, you have to for repeat long term business. Brent does not hesitate to tell me to pass on one of his auction cards if he feels I should be patient and wait for a little stronger example knowing my goals and tastes. Sometimes my itchy trigger does not want to listen to him but I almost always do.

Could this be because these are the PSA 9, etc. copies that Moser was purchasing with the intent to doctor them up for a grade bump and re-submittal to a future PWCC auction?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pspa123

On 54 the Musial winner posted this.

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Peter - sellers like Brent, Steve Hart and some others are straight shooters. They build successful businesses because they are trustworthy. No different than my company taking care of our customers/consumers because we stand behind our product, you have to for repeat long term business. Brent does not hesitate to tell me to pass on one of his auction cards if he feels I should be patient and wait for a little stronger example knowing my goals and tastes. Sometimes my itchy trigger does not want to listen to him but I almost always do.

This guy got suckered good.

Brent: Hey man, pass on all these. A better example is coming!
Musial guy: Okay Brent!
Brent: Hey man, we’re selling this pop 1 1952 Bowman PSA 10 Musial. You should totally win it! It’s amazing!
Musial guy: Okay Brent! You’re totally trustworthy. Please take my $25k.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by LSUNatChamps

Could this be because these are the PSA 9, etc. copies that Moser was purchasing with the intent to doctor them up for a grade bump and re-submittal to a future PWCC auction?

More simply, it sounds like Brent was possibly pushing Moser auctions. Maybe because they have an agreement where Brent takes a bigger cut? This should all be easily proven when their bookkeeping records are subpoenaed.

If Brent was instructing one buyer in this manner, I’m sure he was doing it to many.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

More simply, it sounds like Brent was possibly pushing Moser auctions. Maybe because they have an agreement where Brent takes a bigger cut? This should all be easily proven when their bookkeeping records are subpoenaed.

If Brent was instructing one buyer in this manner, I’m sure he was doing it to many.

Recall, he does, or did, offer so-called investment advice. Purely objective, no doubt. It never ceases to amaze how otherwise successful and sophisticated people check it at the door when it comes to baseball cards and are putty in the hands of fraudsters.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

This guy got suckered good.

Brent: Hey man, pass on all these. A better example is coming!
Musial guy: Okay Brent!
Brent: Hey man, we’re selling this pop 1 1952 Bowman PSA 10 Musial. You should totally win it! It’s amazing!
Musial guy: Okay Brent! You’re totally trustworthy. Please take my $25k.

Wow! That’s a very special kind of Kool-Aid he must be drinking...

[Deadshot]

Even if Brent isn't in on the trimming, is it right for him to suggest which cards his buyers should and should not pursue? Isn't that disruptive to the marketplace and doesn't it give a negative stigma to cards from the other sellers he's consigning for? If I'm a seller of one of the other examples, I know I'm certainly not happy about it.

Remember, these were his words on the CC interview:

Originally Posted by Brent

I don't want to end auctions and relist them if information surfaces after the auction starts because it's disruptive to the marketplace…I want everyone to be sensitive the fact that I had a job to do and we have to be fair to our submitters and we don't want to create a negative stigma that is unwarranted…

[mjohnatgt]

We've discussed it a couple of times on Net54. Is it more ethical to tell you buyers not to bid, or tell them "no comment"? I am on the "no comment" side.

[UFFDAH]

I am aware through 312. I had already alerted PWCC and PSA. Yesterday PWCC sent me a label to have the card shipped back and I am expecting a refund. Will circle back with the final results once I have them.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Deadshot

Even if Brent isn't in on the trimming, is it right for him to suggest which cards his buyers should and should not pursue? Isn't that disruptive to the marketplace and doesn't it give a negative stigma to cards from the other sellers he's consigning for? If I'm a seller of one of the other examples, I know I'm certainly not happy about it.

Remember, these were his words on the CC interview:

Nailed it. A consigner steering away prospective buyers from certain cards and toward others. Could be trying to steer attention away from cards he wants Moser to get for doctoring.

[pspa123]

More from 54.

I review most of my PWCC card targets including the Musial with Brent before I pull the trigger with a bid and have the utmost trust in his opinion. My best bump of a PWCC purchase is a 58' Jim Brown from an 8 to an 8.5 so my confidence and trust is VERY HIGH.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by UFFDAH

I am aware through 312. I had already alerted PWCC and PSA. Yesterday PWCC sent me a label to have the card shipped back and I am expecting a refund. Will circle back with the final results once I have them.

Excellent. To be clear, I wasn’t laughing at your misfortune. Just the absurdity of this situation and how terrible of a person Brent is.

Salt of the earth. Salt of the earth.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by UFFDAH

I am aware through 312. I had already alerted PWCC and PSA. Yesterday PWCC sent me a label to have the card shipped back and I am expecting a refund. Will circle back with the final results once I have them.

I am sorry this happened to you.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by pspa123

More from 54.

I review most of my PWCC card targets including the Musial with Brent before I pull the trigger with a bid and have the utmost trust in his opinion. My best bump of a PWCC purchase is a 58' Jim Brown from an 8 to an 8.5 so my confidence and trust is VERY HIGH.

He posted that one on the PSA message board as well. That card (reviewed in slab, not part of this scandal) gained like $70,000 in SMR value, IIRC.

[signed79]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

He posted that one on the PSA message board as well. That card (reviewed in slab, not part of this scandal) gained like $70,000 in SMR value, IIRC.

Wouldn't hurt to look into that PSA 8

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Excellent. To be clear, I wasn’t laughing at your misfortune. Just the absurdity of this situation and how terrible of a person Brent is.

Salt of the earth. Salt of the earth.

He is, he says, working to regain our trust. Man, it's bad enough to be selling those cards, but to be knowingly steering trusting people to buy them, wow. And if the buyer discussed with Brent the price he was willing to pay beforehand as he stated, well, we can all wonder about that too I guess.

[signed79]

Brent probably is telling him he's a victim and UFFDAH believes him.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by signed79

Brent probably is telling him he's a victim and UFFDAH believes him.

No. Tone it down.

[wharfrat7624]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

We've discussed it a couple of times on Net54. Is it more ethical to tell you buyers not to bid, or tell them "no comment"? I am on the "no comment" side.

Agreed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wharfrat7624]

Originally Posted by UFFDAH

I am aware through 312. I had already alerted PWCC and PSA. Yesterday PWCC sent me a label to have the card shipped back and I am expecting a refund. Will circle back with the final results once I have them.

Sorry you have to deal with this. Best of luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[signed79]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

No. Tone it down.

I didn't mean for that to have a negative tone toward UFFDAH and apologize if was read as such.

[signed79]

If anyone has a PWCC Moser card that has been recolored in the less than $500 range please let me know as I am interested in purchasing it for testing.

[HarryLime]

UFFDAH is a good guy. I hate hearing that he got caught up in this.

Arthur

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by signed79

Wouldn't hurt to look into that PSA 8

So this would be a very interesting case study. I looked for a match with a cursory search, but didn't dig too far. But for theoreticals:
1) Card is a PSA 5, bought by Moser and altered.
2) Moser's card gets submitted and is awarded the PSA 8 and sells for $8K.
3) Buyer reviews the card in holder and PSA awards the card an 8.5 worth $75,000.
4) Moser's PSA 8 is found to be matched to the PSA 5 with alterations.

PSA would be on the hook for the "current market value" of the 8.5 card, after missing the alterations twice, and owe $75,000.

[cardlawyer]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

So this would be a very interesting case study. I looked for a match with a cursory search, but didn't dig too far. But for theoreticals:
1) Card is a PSA 5, bought by Moser and altered.
2) Moser's card gets submitted and is awarded the PSA 8 and sells for $8K.
3) Buyer reviews the card in holder and PSA awards the card an 8.5 worth $75,000.
4) Moser's PSA 8 is found to be matched to the PSA 5 with alterations.

PSA would be on the hook for the "current market value" of the 8.5 card, after missing the alterations twice, and owe $75,000.

It would be nice for some of the people taken by this fraud to utilize their state’s (or defendants’ state) Consuler Fraud Protection laws as they may allow for treble damages, punitive damages, attorneys fees and costs. IMO that would penalize those involved above and beyond mere return costs, plus open up possibilities of getting sworn testimony from the culprits.