$22.5k of Trimmed Harper 2012 Topps Heritage High Autos Sold via PWCC and Probstein

[corndog]

Originally Posted by Rooftop

Has this card been altered?

Thank you for reaching out. We do not see any evidence of this item being altered. It does measure out to the correct dimensions for this issue of 2-5/8" by 3-3/4" Thank you for your interest in our auctions.

Best Regards,

Robby Rittenhouse.

PWCC Marketplace

I didn’t necessarily meant trimmed. Being reported that this card had very poor corners in the past.

Thank you for reaching out. We do not see any evidence of trimming and do stand by the authentication and grade given by PSA. Thank you for your participation in our auctions.

Best Regards,

Robby Rittenhouse.

PWCC Marketplace

Robby Rittenhouse was a delivery driver for Lowes before being hired by PWCC less than two years ago. I doubt he even knows who Mickey Mantle is.

[jmscoggin]

Originally Posted by smalltown

Trimming a card in itself is not fraud or in anyway illegal. It's perfectly legal for someone to set up shop and trim and alter cards for a living. The same is done with all kinds of art. You can do what ever you want with a card you own. The crime/fraud arises when you attempt to mislead someone when selling an item. An argument can be made wether this even needs to be intentionally misleading someone.

Person A owns a card.
Person A has Person B trim a card for a fee.
Person A sells a card without notifying potential purchasers of the alteration.

Person A has committed fraud. Person B has done nothing wrong.

Legally maybe with a plausible deniability defense but let's get real, anyone paid to trim knows full well what the intent of the trimming is. That's like saying that Greg Marino wouldn't have been culpable if he didn't know where his fake autographs were ending up. Your post is factual on it's face but the people involved in such activity are no less shady or upstanding. Our hobby needs to weed them out aggressively.

[cking]

I though PWCC stated they were going to pull down cards that are proven altered. This card has been proven to be altered.

Why is it still up?

They stated in this thread that altered cards would be pulled. This card is altered and its not being pulled.

Why would they say they are going to do something and then not do it? All in the same thread none the less.

[discostu]

* If there's a hell way down below, I bet you see someone you know *

[SaveMeTheGum]

Originally Posted by cking

I though PWCC stated they were going to pull down cards that are proven altered. This card has been proven to be altered.

Why is it still up?

They stated in this thread that altered cards would be pulled. This card is altered and its not being pulled.

Why would they say they are going to do something and then not do it? All in the same thread none the less.

Because if they pull a monster like a '52 Mantle, whoever sent that to them will send all their business Probstein going forward.

This is one of their responses in the Will Jaimet thread:

Originally Posted by PWCC Marketplace

Betsy Huigens here. I wanted to follow up to my prior post to provide greater color on our policies.

Anyone proven to submit problematic cards through our venue is always contacted and the matter addressed; anyone who continues to cause problems is banned from being a client.

More importantly in our opinion, as a business we work to identify cards that have been proven altered, ensuring that they are not sold through our venue. From long experience, we believe strongly that policing the product on the marketplace is the best approach and is the most effective method for changing behavior and protecting the market. Policing individuals has proven ineffective because people looking hurt the market will only change their IDs and submit under a different name, or simply sell their assets through other venues which ultimately does not serve the market. Devaluing altered cards has a far stronger and further-reaching effect on bad behavior. Rest assured that the reputations of individuals discussed on these and other message boards are indeed negatively impacted - the research, policing and demands for accountability is having the desired effect.

Again, when there is a blatant example of a client submitting altered cards to PWCC we do indeed take action and will refuse to accept future submissions.

Please don't hesitate to reach out to me personally if I or anyone else at PWCC can answer specific questions. I can be reached at betsy@pwccmarketplace.com.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by discostu

I don't think we need to blur the lines on the issues by resorting to mocking previous, unrelated employment.

Robby seemed to answer the company line, verbatim.

Mickey Mantle or Mickey Hatcher...it doesn't change the clearly evident alteration to the card.

I think corndog was taking a jab at the fact that some nobody at PWCC is the one responding to the eBay message, and that PWCC has AVOIDED speaking about the Mantle here. Thus, making their prior statements a total joke and proving that they are untrustworthy.

[psd2k10]

Question: Now that we know a lot of these 2012 heritage harper autos have been altered, does this mean my 2012 heritage harper red auto /10 is that much more rare/valuable? And no mine is not altered nor graded. Pulled by me and my son.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by psd2k10

Question: Now that we know a lot of these 2012 heritage harper autos have been altered, does this mean my 2012 heritage harper red auto /10 is that much more rare/valuable? And no mine is not altered nor graded. Pulled by me and my son.

how do we know?

[psd2k10]

Originally Posted by thosebackpages

how do we know?

because one of the corners has a touch of white

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by psd2k10

because one of the corners has a touch of white

sure, until you sell it

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by ;14633003

Question: Now that we know a lot of these 2012 heritage harper autos have been altered, does this mean my 2012 heritage harper red auto /10 is that much more rare/valuable? And no mine is not altered nor graded. Pulled by me and my son.

This question illustrates how difficult it is to focus on the bigger problem. Everyone wants to know how the issue affects them personally, hopefully people are giving greater weight to how the issue affects the larger hobby first...if not, the corruption will never go away.

[cking]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

This question illustrates how difficult it is to focus on the bigger problem. Everyone wants to know how the issue affects them personally, hopefully people are giving greater weight to how the issue affects the larger hobby first...if not, the corruption will never go away.

What world do you live in?

No one cares about anyone but themselves. That is not exclusive to sports cards.

[psd2k10]

Originally Posted by cking

What world do you live in?

No one cares about anyone but themselves. That is not exclusive to sports cards.

“no one cares about no one but themselves?” Wow. I fee bad for you.

[PWCC Marketplace]

Originally Posted by cking

I though PWCC stated they were going to pull down cards that are proven altered. This card has been proven to be altered.

Why is it still up?

They stated in this thread that altered cards would be pulled. This card is altered and its not being pulled.

Why would they say they are going to do something and then not do it? All in the same thread none the less.

Later this month we will publish our Marketplace Tenets which, among other things, touches on the differences between alteration and conservation. Until then, I will summarize why this card is still live in our auction.

In our view, there's a difference between conservation and alteration. Conservation is any act which returns a card closer to its as-manufactured condition and does not render the card artificially different from the as-manufactured state. Removal of dirt, glue, pencil marks, wax, etc. are good examples of conservation, so long as it's done in a way that doesn't affect the natural properties of a card.

Alteration is very different from conservation in that it generally involves the addition of a foreign matter to a card (i.e. recoloring or corner rebuilding) or the removal of material (i.e. trimming, erasing print, etc).

The ‘52 Mantle in question shows no signs of alteration based on these definitions, so it is an acceptable asset to be sold on the marketplace.

[GatorPie]

Take the 1986 to 1989 Fleer basketball stickers, for example. Every single one of them has wax buildup on the reverse, because it's on the back of the pack. To get them to grade higher than a damn 6, you have to take some pantyhose and rub that wax off the back. Works perfectly without a trace.

Is there something wrong with that?

About 15 years ago I bought a centered 1988 Fleer Sticker Jordan that was a PSA 9 (ST) for $35, cracked it out, wiped off the wax, and submitted it to BGS. It ended up being the first Mint 9 they ever graded (there were 2 higher, but no 9's), and I sold it for $1,200. Should I be locked up?

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

Take the 1986 to 1989 Fleer basketball stickers, for example. Every single one of them has wax buildup on the reverse, because it's on the back of the pack. To get them to grade higher than a damn 6, you have to take some pantyhose and rub that wax off the back. Works perfectly without a trace.

Is there something wrong with that?

About 15 years ago I bought a centered 1988 Fleer Sticker Jordan that was a PSA 9 (ST) for $35, cracked it out, wiped off the wax, and submitted it to BGS. It ended up being the first Mint 9 they ever graded (there were 2 higher, but no 9's), and I sold it for $1,200. Should I be locked up?

None of that would get an N5 from PSA, whereas this card should've.

[rogermaris]

Originally Posted by PWCC Marketplace

Conservation is any act which returns a card closer to its as-manufactured condition and does not render the card artificially different from the as-manufactured state. Removal of dirt, glue, pencil marks, wax, etc. are good examples of conservation, so long as it's done in a way that doesn't affect the natural properties of a card.

Do you consider using chemical solvents to remove glue/dirt/etc a form of acceptable conservation or do you consider it an alteration?

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

Do you consider using chemical solvents to remove glue/dirt/etc a form of acceptable conservation or do you consider it an alteration?

If you read through this gem of a thread, the answer should be obvious:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=234837

[cking]

Originally Posted by PWCC Marketplace

Later this month we will publish our Marketplace Tenets which, among other things, touches on the differences between alteration and conservation. Until then, I will summarize why this card is still live in our auction.

In our view, there's a difference between conservation and alteration. Conservation is any act which returns a card closer to its as-manufactured condition and does not render the card artificially different from the as-manufactured state. Removal of dirt, glue, pencil marks, wax, etc. are good examples of conservation, so long as it's done in a way that doesn't affect the natural properties of a card.

Alteration is very different from conservation in that it generally involves the addition of a foreign matter to a card (i.e. recoloring or corner rebuilding) or the removal of material (i.e. trimming, erasing print, etc).

The ‘52 Mantle in question shows no signs of alteration based on these definitions, so it is an acceptable asset to be sold on the marketplace.

Ok,so you are aware the card has been 'restored'

If restoring or performing conservation on a card is not an issue in your eyes then why not disclose in the listing that work has been performed on the card?

After all, you said its not an issue to perform 'conservation' so why not disclose that information.

I am not trying to give you a hard time, I am genuinely curious.

That is a very expensive item. Do you think its right or fair for someone to spend that kind of money on a card like that and not tell them that information?

If you honestly think its ok to do that to someone then you need to take a good long hard look at yourself because that is incredibly unethical.

[smalltown]

Originally Posted by jmscoggin

Legally maybe with a plausible deniability defense but let's get real, anyone paid to trim knows full well what the intent of the trimming is. That's like saying that Greg Marino wouldn't have been culpable if he didn't know where his fake autographs were ending up. Your post is factual on it's face but the people involved in such activity are no less shady or upstanding. Our hobby needs to weed them out aggressively.

They don't need a plausible deniability defence. As long as they are not misleading anyone they are not committing a crime. A trimmer/cleaner etc. can be 100% upfront about what they do. Doesn't mean we have to like it. But they've done nothing wrong - unless they of course take part in the selling of these cards.

[smalltown]

Originally Posted by cking

After all, you said its not an issue to perform 'conservation' so why not disclose that information.

100% if a card has been 'conserved" it should absolutely be disclosed. They do this in the art world. They keep track of conservation of art work.

[Oldan Poar]

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[psd2k10]

Originally Posted by oldan poar

i have heard and read the differences between alteration, conservation and restoration.

Drum roll….

alteration is a change, usually a slight change, in the appearance, character, or structure of something.

conservation is the maintenance, careful preservation, and protection of objects from future damage and deterioration.

restoration is bringing back to a former position or condition. Restoring to an unimpaired or improved condition approaching their original undamaged appearance.

Some places have restrictions on the selling of artwork through them. Like, including the details of any conservation, alterations and repairs that were done.

I know we're taking about cards.

not just cards but very very expensive cards. Like i said, this is why i dont buy from pwcc and probstein. Seems like they only care about the profit and could care less about the hobby.

[discostu]

* If there's a hell way down below, I bet you see someone you know *

[psd2k10]

Originally Posted by discostu

Don't let PSA and BGS off of the hook.

The bottom line is the only line.

100% agree. In this particular situation, PSA should be embarrassed by this.