📈Is the correction over? What cards look attractive with an upside potential?📈

[Blazed]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

Talk me through it. I'll give you two real life examples. I'm genuinely curious what regulations you would propose to meet the above goals that would still allow casual and business sellers to operate without drastically changing the economic landscape of the hobby.

Example 1: My card business is already registered with the state. I report local sales monthly for sales tax purposes and report my overall business sales annually for income tax purposes. I have a vendor's license to setup at card shows and this license also allows me to purchase inventory without sales tax. I mostly buy and sell singles and sets, but I will dabble in wax transactions when there is an opportunity to profit on sealed product. What additional regulations would you propose on someone like me that would prevent me from scamming, protect my customers, and ensure fair competition?

Example 2: My buddy is a true "casual" on eBay. He spends a few hundred a month on wax and break spots, keeps some cards for his PC and sells the rest either on eBay or takes them to a local shop. He loses money and doesn't consider himself a business so he knows if he skates below the 20k/200 threshold, he won't get a 1099. The government tried to lower those thresholds substantially and a lot of people lost their minds over it and said it would be ridiculous for the IRS to police small sellers like that. Supposing they went through it (which would mainly benefit the government), what additional regulations would you propose on someone like my friend to prevent him from scamming, protect his customers, and ensure fair competition?

I'm not asking you for a dissertation. Just a concise, common sense, explanation of how you would regulate the two examples above.

I was referring to regulations specific towards the consigners, auction houses and the card funding services and the huge conflicts of interest/lack of transparency currently going on between them and less towards eBay sellers (casual & small business) as basic regulations are already in place and work for the most part

[Blazed]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

If it wasn’t for shilling, how would we get our high comps?

"Private sales"

[Gem10collection]

Originally Posted by Torro

Hey Gem10collector, before you go could you please let us know how did it go investing wise for u, you don’t need to drop figures just % and time would be awesome, thanks!

If I closed the book on alt assets today exactly 36.8% ytd.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by Torro

By crypto industry you mean the ETFs of BTC and ETH? The crypto industry is way wider than this and nobody has regulated the whole industry. Look what is happening with SOL meme coins, organized pump and dumps all day long and there are zero regulations, anyone can participate as it’s all happening on swaps not exchanges, no KYC just internet connection and anonymous SOL wallets. And the volumes in the SOL trenches are crazy, even Trumped pumped and dumped $$$ out of regular people lol

Perhaps I should have been more specific.

'Begun' to regulate. Meaning international exchanges no longer support US customers. And all exchanges now require KYC (which is what I mentioned early that could drastically curtail anonymous shill bidding for cards).

Yes, the crypto landscape isn't perfect, but those are still major steps towards governmental accounting and ensuring people aren't gaming the system.

Anyone using completely decentralized swapping pools thinking they're somehow ever going to cash out one day undetected are playing a fools game. If you're a low level player, sure you may get away with it. But eventually the IRS is going to wonder how you acquired the funds to purchase that new Maseratti or house cash, especially if you don't have any other legitimate source(s) of income listed.

People conflate crypto anonymity with being being absolutely stealth. Everything has a paper address trail.

[Torro]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Perhaps I should have been more specific.

'Begun' to regulate. Meaning international exchanges no longer support US customers. And all exchanges now require KYC (which is what I mentioned early that could drastically curtail anonymous shill bidding for cards).

Yes, the crypto landscape isn't perfect, but those are still major steps towards governmental accounting and ensuring people aren't gaming the system.

Anyone using completely decentralized swapping pools thinking they're somehow ever going to cash out one day undetected are playing a fools game. If you're a low level player, sure you may get away with it. But eventually the IRS is going to wonder how you acquired the funds to purchase that new Maseratti or house cash, especially if you don't have any other legitimate source(s) of income listed.

People conflate crypto anonymity with being being absolutely stealth. Everything has a paper address trail.

Big selling platforms might get regulated at some point, I would think most likely due to AML. From the regulators perspective, I dont think the goal is to stop shill bids or "someone spending too much on breaks" side of things (cant really fix that with regulations) but purely the AML side of things. But AML wise it will be really hard, as the buyers are not the ones trying to launder money, but the ones sending in 500k cards and cashing out clean money from these sales. Now how to make sure someone did not pull it from a pack 20 years ago and bought it with dirty cash on the streets? Things will get really nasty if you need to start proving how you got the cards you have..

[jcardstore]

What do people even mean when they say “regulated”

There are multiple steps that require KYC and have AML checks before you could even move a substantial amount of money to or from an auction house or consignor.

It feels like people call the card market unregulated because it sounds nice but don’t have any idea what regulation would even be.

[auctionjmm]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

What do people even mean when they say “regulated”

There are multiple steps that require KYC and have AML checks before you could even move a substantial amount of money to or from an auction house or consignor.

It feels like people call the card market unregulated because it sounds nice but don’t have any idea what regulation would even be.

I said this earlier and the discussion went right back to shilling and auction houses. None of which has anything to do with regulating the hobby.

I completely agree that shilling is rampant, is easily spotted, and rarely enforced. It would be a lot easier to just say auction houses (including eBay) should be required to verify buyers and use systems such as AI to spot and remove obvious shill accounts. The fact that a seller can even make a second eBay account to shill their own auctions without having to verify their identify is the real problem. I've never looked close enough at their policies to better understand how this can happen. There were a few shillers I had tracked in the past who had 4 or 5 different accounts. That wouldn't be possible if the account owner had to verify their identity.

[wilsonsingles]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

I said this earlier and the discussion went right back to shilling and auction houses. None of which has anything to do with regulating the hobby.

I completely agree that shilling is rampant, is easily spotted, and rarely enforced. It would be a lot easier to just say auction houses (including eBay) should be required to verify buyers and use systems such as AI to spot and remove obvious shill accounts. The fact that a seller can even make a second eBay account to shill their own auctions without having to verify their identify is the real problem. I've never looked close enough at their policies to better understand how this can happen. There were a few shillers I had tracked in the past who had 4 or 5 different accounts. That wouldn't be possible if the account owner had to verify their identity.

ebay does crack down on second/multiple ebay accounts especially when they detect the same ip address being used. Of course if you are smart enough to use two separate ip addresses/computers-phones and two separate physical address, you might be abe to get away with it for a little while.

[Blazed]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

What do people even mean when they say “regulated”

There are multiple steps that require KYC and have AML checks before you could even move a substantial amount of money to or from an auction house or consignor.

It feels like people call the card market unregulated because it sounds nice but don’t have any idea what regulation would even be.

Better oversight and more transparency

It's not rocket science

As far as KYC and AML checks, that's the problem, money isn't moving but the sale's are being recorded. Multiple ppl across FB IG eBay and X are reporting auctions (5 and 6 figures) not being paid for and getting relisted by consigners

But as they say, it's so much easier to go through life being ignorant

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by Blazed

Better oversight and more transparency

It's not rocket science

As far as KYC and AML checks, that's the problem, money isn't moving but the sale's are being recorded. Multiple ppl across FB IG eBay and X are reporting auctions (5 and 6 figures) not being paid for and getting relisted by consigners

But as they say, it's so much easier to go through life being ignorant

Agree. When someone sells a stock, you can easily see what it's going for. When Shyne posted on IG about selling the Luka NT Logoman and just shows a dude's personal check, it means little or nothing.

Higher standards for grading cards would help a lot, too.

These third party grading companies/authenticators let fakes and altered cards by all the time.

You can resubmit a card that's a 6 and it comes back a 10. You can sub a card that looks like a 10 and it comes back a 6 or 7 with no real rhyme or reason.

[Brazenways]

I am somewhat conflicted on regulation and all that fun stuff.

Auction houses are absolutely praying on both buyers and sellers. The fact eBay allows private account bids and still to this day does not force auto pay is so sketch.

On the other hand - no one is forcing anyone to buy/sell/bid/trade. If you subbed a max bid of 500$ then thats on you to open up the app, find the listing and punch in that amount. You can blame the ease of use or past comp to influence emotions but man nobody else pressed bid but you.

[auctionjmm]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

Agree. When someone sells a stock, you can easily see what it's going for. When Shyne posted on IG about selling the Luka NT Logoman and just shows a dude's personal check, it means little or nothing.

Higher standards for grading cards would help a lot, too.

These third party grading companies/authenticators let fakes and altered cards by all the time.

You can resubmit a card that's a 6 and it comes back a 10. You can sub a card that looks like a 10 and it comes back a 6 or 7 with no real rhyme or reason.

Are you saying that private sales of sports cards shouldn't be allowed? How would you handle card shows? Require dealers to report every sale to some authority that publicizes the information like a stock exchange? That seems excessive and still doesnt stop someone from selling privately. Every stock that is sold is tracked from inception. In order to do something similar with cards, you'd have to re-start the whole industry from scratch and have the manufacturers put tracking numbers on every single card that is packed out. Of course, this would create problems with randomness since now they'd have to know which specific boxes each card was packed into and if a 13 year old bought that box, you'd have to rely on the 13 year old to "report" that he pulled it and if he sells it, "report" the sale. And the dealer receiving it would "report" on his end....the longer I type, the more ridiculous this sounds.

Sorry to break it to you, but that personal check isn't your business after all. You simply can't regulate that.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

Are you saying that private sales of sports cards shouldn't be allowed? How would you handle card shows? Require dealers to report every sale to some authority that publicizes the information like a stock exchange? That seems excessive and still doesnt stop someone from selling privately. Every stock that is sold is tracked from inception. In order to do something similar with cards, you'd have to re-start the whole industry from scratch and have the manufacturers put tracking numbers on every single card that is packed out. Of course, this would create problems with randomness since now they'd have to know which specific boxes each card was packed into and if a 13 year old bought that box, you'd have to rely on the 13 year old to "report" that he pulled it and if he sells it, "report" the sale. And the dealer receiving it would "report" on his end....the longer I type, the more ridiculous this sounds.

Sorry to break it to you, but that personal check isn't your business after all. You simply can't regulate that.

This is exactly what I mean when I say people don't actually understand the implications of the thing they think they want.

It would be absurd to regulate cards in this way because they're not financial instruments and nobody wants them to be treated as such.

No other collectible market on earth is treated this way so why would sports cards be different.

The people here, with the exception of Nat and maybe a select few others, aren't even in the types of markets they're so upset with. Why should you or any of us care what Shyne claims to have paid for a card? It doesn't many even a slight difference on anything here. If you do have the means to be in these markets and are upset about it use your money to lobby. (We know nobody is going to)

If there is fraud and shilling and other illegal activity it should be investigated through the already established processes

[auctionjmm]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

This is exactly what I mean when I say people don't actually understand the implications of the thing they think they want.

It would be absurd to regulate cards in this way because they're not financial instruments and nobody wants them to be treated as such.

No other collectible market on earth is treated this way so why would sports cards be different.

The people here, with the exception of Nat and maybe a select few others, aren't even in the types of markets they're so upset with. Why should you or any of us care what Shyne claims to have paid for a card? It doesn't many even a slight difference on anything here. If you do have the means to be in these markets and are upset about it use your money to lobby. (We know nobody is going to)

If there is fraud and shilling and other illegal activity it should be investigated through the already established processes

They really dont lol. Imagine buying 100 cards from a value box and then spending 2 hours doing paperwork to make sure the proper authority has been notified.

[Blazed]

Who said anything about reporting a value box purchase?

Small minds think of small scenarios

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by Blazed

Who said anything about reporting a value box purchase?

Small minds think of small scenarios

Well since you're such a rich guy who plays in million dollar markets go use your money to lobby for some regulation

[auctionjmm]

Originally Posted by Blazed

Who said anything about reporting a value box purchase?

Small minds think of small scenarios

I was replying to the guy who didnt think a seller should be able to take a personal check for a card without some type of authority to govern and report the sale for the public to see. We are on the same team. You are just being a jerk about it.

I am on board with making auction houses safer and more transparent. But I will scoff at any notion that a single trading card can be tracked and regulated in the same manner as a single stock.

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

Are you saying that private sales of sports cards shouldn't be allowed? How would you handle card shows? Require dealers to report every sale to some authority that publicizes the information like a stock exchange? That seems excessive and still doesnt stop someone from selling privately. Every stock that is sold is tracked from inception. In order to do something similar with cards, you'd have to re-start the whole industry from scratch and have the manufacturers put tracking numbers on every single card that is packed out. Of course, this would create problems with randomness since now they'd have to know which specific boxes each card was packed into and if a 13 year old bought that box, you'd have to rely on the 13 year old to "report" that he pulled it and if he sells it, "report" the sale. And the dealer receiving it would "report" on his end....the longer I type, the more ridiculous this sounds.

Sorry to break it to you, but that personal check isn't your business after all. You simply can't regulate that.

I just made a simple observation that when something is sold in a regulated industry (like the stock market), you know how much it was sold for.

Does every sale have to be documented? No.

Does every sale have to be public? No.

But when someone's claiming a huge transaction and doesn't really show proof, that's dangerous as it can easily become mainstream and affect the general public.

There are times I love the Wild West of cash transactions and trading in the marketplace. I'm just brainstorming ways to improve it.

[Torro]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

Agree. When someone sells a stock, you can easily see what it's going for. When Shyne posted on IG about selling the Luka NT Logoman and just shows a dude's personal check, it means little or nothing.

Higher standards for grading cards would help a lot, too.

These third party grading companies/authenticators let fakes and altered cards by all the time.

You can resubmit a card that's a 6 and it comes back a 10. You can sub a card that looks like a 10 and it comes back a 6 or 7 with no real rhyme or reason.

Surely regulators don’t care about “higher standards for grading”, and also they don’t care if someone bid on eBay and didn’t pay for it lol these things have nothing to do with regulators. You choose the marketplace you want to buy/sell, it can even be IG or your local hobby shop. You also choose the company for grading your cards. The marketplaces and grading companies need to make sure everything is legit and the quality is good or the clients will go to other places. Just because there is big money involved does not mean it’s an area of regulators to do some kind of oversight lol

The only thing that could get attention is AML or fraudulent activity. But I understand that things could be improved and both of the marketplaces and grading companies have serious flaws, but no regulator will come and fix these things.

[Blazed]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

Well since you're such a rich guy who plays in million dollar markets go use your money to lobby for some regulation

You good?

Cheer up buttercup

[Blazed]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

I was replying to the guy who didnt think a seller should be able to take a personal check for a card without some type of authority to govern and report the sale for the public to see. We are on the same team. You are just being a jerk about it.

I am on board with making auction houses safer and more transparent. But I will scoff at any notion that a single trading card can be tracked and regulated in the same manner as a single stock.

He's just throwing around ideas that would make the hobby safer, it's not a bid deal if it's 100% implementable or not

It's better than just burying your head in the sand and not saying anything

Starting with auction houses and consignment sellers would probably make a big enough dent that the rest of the bs would stop

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by Blazed

You good?

Cheer up buttercup

I'm eating ice for dinner tonight, of course I'm sad!

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by Torro

Big selling platforms might get regulated at some point, I would think most likely due to AML. From the regulators perspective, I dont think the goal is to stop shill bids or "someone spending too much on breaks" side of things (cant really fix that with regulations) but purely the AML side of things. But AML wise it will be really hard, as the buyers are not the ones trying to launder money, but the ones sending in 500k cards and cashing out clean money from these sales. Now how to make sure someone did not pull it from a pack 20 years ago and bought it with dirty cash on the streets? Things will get really nasty if you need to start proving how you got the cards you have..

Why wouldn't buyers necessarily be trying to launder money? It's the same exact concept as crypto. Shielding your funds in alternative assets.

IMO KYC for buyers is the only real regulative measure that makes sense for cards on various platforms. But it's a multifaceted problem because a lot of these platforms oftentimes are deal in a multitude of different items. But you could limit it to certain listing categories. The rest seem unfeasible at this point, or at the very least extremely difficult to solve.

You can never regulate offline transactions. I mean they've taken measures on localbitcoins awhile ago, but if someone just wants to meet up to exchange crypto or cards there is no possible way that can be prevented.

[KhalDrogo]

Why do I have to prove my identity via government issued ID at auction houses like Sotheby’s and Christie’s, but not at Fanatics, Goldin, etc?

[Torro]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Why wouldn't buyers necessarily be trying to launder money? It's the same exact concept as crypto. Shielding your funds in alternative assets.

IMO KYC for buyers is the only real regulative measure that makes sense for cards on various platforms. But it's a multifaceted problem because a lot of these platforms oftentimes are deal in a multitude of different items. But you could limit it to certain listing categories. The rest seem unfeasible at this point, or at the very least extremely difficult to solve.

You can never regulate offline transactions. I mean they've taken measures on localbitcoins awhile ago, but if someone just wants to meet up to exchange crypto or cards there is no possible way that can be prevented.

The buyers need to pay with their card, there are already AML policies in place by the financial institutions who issued the card, only if the buying can be done with cash (can you pay cash at any marketplace?)

KYC would be great for preventing shill biding and should be implemented at least by big auction houses (ebay most likely will not do it).