First Buzz: 2020-21 Panini National Treasures NBA cards

[yiguiri2002]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

Nothing compares to breaking wax in terms of losses. It's literally the worst value proposition I can think of and that was prior to the big boom in prices. Now it's just burning money and doing it again throwing good money at bad money.

It's a serious addiction.

The problem is that most of the "addicts" normally go for the high risk, high reward products. Those tend to have the lower ROIs.

Before the price explosion, there were products that had would return over 100% when they were on sale. I wouldn't break anything that return less than 80%. Now, outside of a few cases (like breaking on release like auctionjmm does), it's a bloodbath.

The funniest thing to me is that this season is probably giving better returns than others outside of high end products.

[Brobocop]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

You guys are some of the dumbest people on the planet if you think the value proposition of busting wax is anywhere near as bad as gamblers in a casino or people who buy scratch offs/play the lottery

The number of people who have been ruined financially by buying into group breaks or busting wax is probably .01% or so compared to the people who have been ruined by those other vices. This industry is comically small and infantile compared to those.

Also wax busters/group breakers are getting tangible goods in an unstable marketplace here. I bet the people who dropped the most money on group breaks/wax in 2017-2018 (or honestly virtually any year pre 2019) made out like absolute bandits if they held onto even half of the cards pulled for them.

None of us know what the future holds. You can educate people that you think something is a poor value proposition, but if they want to spend their money on it, that isn't your decision to make.

Stop being butt hurt that you can't afford to buy products like NT that your straight laced, lame ass self probably still wouldn't buy at $600 anyways.

I’m sorry, who are you again?

And can I add, why did you feel the need to insult me? Serious question.

[kobemagee29]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

You guys are some of the dumbest people on the planet if you think the value proposition of busting wax is anywhere near as bad as gamblers in a casino or people who buy scratch offs/play the lottery

The number of people who have been ruined financially by buying into group breaks or busting wax is probably .01% or so compared to the people who have been ruined by those other vices. This industry is comically small and infantile compared to those.

Also wax busters/group breakers are getting tangible goods in an unstable marketplace here. I bet the people who dropped the most money on group breaks/wax in 2017-2018 (or honestly virtually any year pre 2019) made out like absolute bandits if they held onto even half of the cards pulled for them.

None of us know what the future holds. You can educate people that you think something is a poor value proposition, but if they want to spend their money on it, that isn't your decision to make.

Stop being butt hurt that you can't afford to buy products like NT that your straight laced, lame ass self probably still wouldn't buy at $600 anyways.

01%, your crazy

[Grizzkid12]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

I’m sorry, who are you again?

And can I add, why did you feel the need to insult me? Serious question.

Just some dude

I wasn't coming at you specifically. Yours was just most recent comments of similar sentiments to many in here so that's the one I quoted. Apologies if it felt like a personal attack.

[Brobocop]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

Just some dude

I wasn't coming at you specifically. Yours was just most recent comments of similar sentiments to many in here so that's the one I quoted. Apologies if it felt like a personal attack.

Then don't quote someone.

Also, outside of the personal attacks, your comment was pretty well rooted in falsehoods. Congrats!

Not being able to buy into a break is much different than being smart enough to know not to buy into a break. I've spent plenty on wax over the years as has most of the people on this board. A lot of us know better. I've opened plenty of National Treasures of all sports in the past.

[Grizzkid12]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

Then don't quote someone.

Also, outside of the personal attacks, your comment was pretty well rooted in falsehoods. Congrats!

Not being able to buy into a break is much different than being smart enough to know not to buy into a break. I've spent plenty on wax over the years as has most of the people on this board. A lot of us know better. I've opened plenty of National Treasures of all sports in the past.

Care to elaborate on such "falsehoods"?

Also no idea what you mean in regards to not being able to buy into a break vs being smart enough to know not to buy into a break.

[jcardstore]

86.37% of statistics are made up on the spot

[sonnyday]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

86.37% of statistics are made up on the spot

This is true

42% of Humpback whales never sleep


True or False? Who knows???

[Brobocop]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

Care to elaborate on such "falsehoods"?

Also no idea what you mean in regards to not being able to buy into a break vs being smart enough to know not to buy into a break.

Let's dissect your incredibly harsh comments a bit:

You guys are some of the dumbest people on the planet if you think the value proposition of busting wax is anywhere near as bad as gamblers in a casino or people who buy scratch offs/play the lottery

-Busting wax is at best, going to provide a return equal or greater than the box, of about 20%. Casino games, tables specifically, can give around 50% depending on how you bet (blackjack, craps, and roulette). A scratch off ticket I think usually returns your investment at a rate of 1 in every 3 tickets.

The number of people who have been ruined financially by buying into group breaks or busting wax is probably .01% or so compared to the people who have been ruined by those other vices. This industry is comically small and infantile compared to those.

This is impossible to measure but I imagine that it has put people into financial binds more often than not. That's why we all joke that people fire sale cards because those end of the month credit card bills hit and they have to at least recoup enough to make the minimum payment. The joke's been around for years but has has really heated up over the past year or so.

Also wax busters/group breakers are getting tangible goods in an unstable marketplace here. I bet the people who dropped the most money on group breaks/wax in 2017-2018 (or honestly virtually any year pre 2019) made out like absolute bandits if they held onto even half of the cards pulled for them.

No arguments here.

None of us know what the future holds. You can educate people that you think something is a poor value proposition, but if they want to spend their money on it, that isn't your decision to make.

Again, nobody is debating that. If people want to piss their money away on group breaks or boxes of NT, let them.

Stop being butt hurt that you can't afford to buy products like NT that your straight laced, lame ass self probably still wouldn't buy at $600 anyways.

A lot of us could buy into these breaks, we choose not to because again, the product sucks and is even worse at these ridiculous prices. It's not about whether we have the money, it's about do we have better ways of spending it? At $600, it's still overpriced.

[jcardstore]

I do always find the "you're too poor" people hilarious. I guess you're not allowed to think anything is overpriced you broke bois!!! Take that ya lames

[Grizzkid12]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

Let's dissect your incredibly harsh comments a bit:

You guys are some of the dumbest people on the planet if you think the value proposition of busting wax is anywhere near as bad as gamblers in a casino or people who buy scratch offs/play the lottery

-Busting wax is at best, going to provide a return equal or greater than the box, of about 20%. Casino games, tables specifically, can give around 50% depending on how you bet (blackjack, craps, and roulette). A scratch off ticket I think usually returns your investment at a rate of 1 in every 3 tickets.

The number of people who have been ruined financially by buying into group breaks or busting wax is probably .01% or so compared to the people who have been ruined by those other vices. This industry is comically small and infantile compared to those.

This is impossible to measure but I imagine that it has put people into financial binds more often than not. That's why we all joke that people fire sale cards because those end of the month credit card bills hit and they have to at least recoup enough to make the minimum payment. The joke's been around for years but has has really heated up over the past year or so.

Also wax busters/group breakers are getting tangible goods in an unstable marketplace here. I bet the people who dropped the most money on group breaks/wax in 2017-2018 (or honestly virtually any year pre 2019) made out like absolute bandits if they held onto even half of the cards pulled for them.

No arguments here.

None of us know what the future holds. You can educate people that you think something is a poor value proposition, but if they want to spend their money on it, that isn't your decision to make.

Again, nobody is debating that. If people want to piss their money away on group breaks or boxes of NT, let them.

Stop being butt hurt that you can't afford to buy products like NT that your straight laced, lame ass self probably still wouldn't buy at $600 anyways.

A lot of us could buy into these breaks, we choose not to because again, the product sucks and is even worse at these ridiculous prices. It's not about whether we have the money, it's about do we have better ways of spending it? At $600, it's still overpriced.

The above is fair so not really going to dispute anything.

My main gripe and why my harsh comments were posted was because it seems many in here are acting like wax/break prices are a major problem and it's almost like an epidemic.

I'm an early/mid 30's guy who is a huge sports fan living in a large city who makes my living in this industry. I have yet to meet someone (unless meeting through this industry) who knows what group breaking is. Obviously I'm sure most people one would meet knows what a casino is and there's a decent chance many of them have a friend or loved one who has a gambling problem.

I get that this is a sports card forum and all, but in the scope of things high wax prices and people losing their shirts in group breaks is not a very wide spread issue in our society

[Brobocop]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

The above is fair so not really going to dispute anything.

My main gripe and why my harsh comments were posted was because it seems many in here are acting like wax/break prices are a major problem and it's almost like an epidemic.

I'm an early/mid 30's guy who is a huge sports fan living in a large city who makes my living in this industry. I have yet to meet someone (unless meeting through this industry) who knows what group breaking is. Obviously I'm sure most people one would meet knows what a casino is and there's a decent chance many of them have a friend or loved one who has a gambling problem.

I get that this is a sports card forum and all, but in the scope of things high wax prices and people losing their shirts in group breaks is not a very wide spread issue in our society

Nobody here really cares if someone goes poor doing group breaks, we care that the influx of group breaks is what has driven up wax prices.

[bberns]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

I'm an early/mid 30's guy who is a huge sports fan living in a large city who makes my living in this industry.... in the scope of things high wax prices and people losing their shirts in group breaks is not a very wide spread issue in our society

This entire back and forth makes more sense now.

[Grizzkid12]

Originally Posted by bberns

This entire back and forth makes more sense now.

Also in it for enjoyment. Trust me, I'd love to rip NT for myself if it was $600 or whatever, but this is what the market is, so I'm just sitting on the sidelines. I don't see the need to disparage buyers in this market though. It's their money, who am I to tell them not to spend it?

Spectra FOTL sold out above 1k last week. I was hoping to grab one at the floor to rip for myself which is likely still lighting money on fire, but I enjoy ripping wax, so I'm willing to spend some discretionary funds on it for entertainment/collection purposes.

I don't see anything wrong with that if I can afford it, so who am I to tell others they can't do the same?

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

Also in it for enjoyment. Trust me, I'd love to rip NT for myself if it was $600 or whatever, but this is what the market is, so I'm just sitting on the sidelines. I don't see the need to disparage buyers in this market though. It's their money, who am I to tell them not to spend it?

Spectra FOTL sold out above 1k last week. I was hoping to grab one at the floor to rip for myself which is likely still lighting money on fire, but I enjoy ripping wax, so I'm willing to spend some discretionary funds on it for entertainment/collection purposes.

I don't see anything wrong with that if I can afford it, so who am I to tell others they can't do the same?

maybe start by not calling people poor if they don't agree with the price point?

[Grizzkid12]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

maybe start by not calling people poor if they don't agree with the price point?

I never did. I believe my words were “straight laced, lame ass”. That’s calling someone in that situation cheap/lame, not poor.

[Brobocop]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

I never did. I believe my words were “straight laced, lame ass”. That’s calling someone in that situation cheap/lame, not poor.

"Stop being butt hurt that you can't afford to buy products like NT that your straight laced, lame ass self probably still wouldn't buy at $600 anyways."

Try again.

[Grizzkid12]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

"Stop being butt hurt that you can't afford to buy products like NT that your straight laced, lame ass self probably still wouldn't buy at $600 anyways."

Try again.

I don’t see how saying that someone can’t afford to buy a product at 4k is calling them “poor”. Putting words in my mouth.

I said don’t be butt hurt that you can’t afford to buy it at 4k. I can’t afford to buy a box at 4k, that doesn’t mean I’m poor.

[Astrok]

Is there supposed to be a guaranteed RPA in NT boxes? I think I heard that but it may have just been my imagination. I opened one (and only one) box and got no RPA... did decently overall. Not enough to make up the cost but better than a lot of people. Got a 1 of 1 from a top 5 pick, so that was nice! Wish it was an auto though

Also -- a lot of white napkins. You'd think if it isn't even player worn memorabilia they could spruce it up a little. Maybe that's just me.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

I never did. I believe my words were “straight laced, lame ass”. That’s calling someone in that situation cheap/lame, not poor.

the lack of self awareness

[PSA2Pac]

Originally Posted by Astrok

Is there supposed to be a guaranteed RPA in NT boxes? I think I heard that but it may have just been my imagination. I opened one (and only one) box and got no RPA... did decently overall. Not enough to make up the cost but better than a lot of people. Got a 1 of 1 from a top 5 pick, so that was nice! Wish it was an auto though

Also -- a lot of white napkins. You'd think if it isn't even player worn memorabilia they could spruce it up a little. Maybe that's just me.

Nice 1/1!

Yeah honestly the box breakdown for NT has always been meh to me. Couple of base cards, bunch of “relic” cards, a printing plate and then the good stuff: a couple autos. $3k for less than half of the box.

A high end/lazy product

[rifleman69]

Get a room everyone!

[bigjbasketball]

Originally Posted by Astrok

Is there supposed to be a guaranteed RPA in NT boxes? I think I heard that but it may have just been my imagination. I opened one (and only one) box and got no RPA... did decently overall. Not enough to make up the cost but better than a lot of people. Got a 1 of 1 from a top 5 pick, so that was nice! Wish it was an auto though

Also -- a lot of white napkins. You'd think if it isn't even player worn memorabilia they could spruce it up a little. Maybe that's just me.

FOTL boxes have a guaranteed short-print RPA parallel #’d /24 or /8 or /3, but there are no guarantees in a regular hobby box. I’ve seen multiple full cases opened where there was only one true vertical RPA in the case. Nice hit on the 1/1 though! Definitely not easy to hit 1/1 parallels from the base set from just one hobby box.

[Astrok]

Originally Posted by bigjbasketball

FOTL boxes have a guaranteed short-print RPA parallel #’d /24 or /8 or /3, but there are no guarantees in a regular hobby box. I’ve seen multiple full cases opened where there was only one true vertical RPA in the case. Nice hit on the 1/1 though! Definitely not easy to hit 1/1 parallels from the base set from just one hobby box.

Thanks, that's almost certainly where I was thinking there was a guaranteed RPA.

[ExpFacilitators]

In this thread:

200 people enter a casino and play roulette. 120 are losers, 70 are winners and 10 break even.

30 people enter a group break. 1 comes out ahead, 29 are big losers

SEE! 120 is bigger than 29, so obviously the casino is the worst option.

I give up.