If the Cavs lose this series, can we finally...

[Vipertron]

In all honesty there is no place for a "GOAT" in any sports, at the very least in my book. Every player brings a different resume to the table. It is incomparable due to the different eras/players.

LeBron...I'll tip my hat for you. He played his heart out.
All time great for sure.

[hairyangryfella]

It bugs me how Lebron had to keep loudly declaring that he is the greatest player on the planet and of course I love that he didn't win this year, but he had an immense Finals performance and I give him credit for that. Until next season, farewell NBA.

[joebalazek]

Originally Posted by rauchand

Dude he has no Love and now no Kyrie. It would take miracle to win it now. Did MJ ever win one without Scottie? No.

MJ never even made it out of the first round without Scottie,

[groundsupport]

Did MJ ever lose with Scottie? No.

Did Lebron lose 2 titles with 2 max players playing along side of him? Yes.

[cnewby]

Originally Posted by joebalazek

MJ never even made it out of the first round without Scottie,

Very interesting and most likely will be ignored by most.

[JasonM32]

Originally Posted by joebalazek

MJ never even made it out of the first round without Scottie,

It doesn't make much sense to say this. There are way more variables in play than just Scottie being there or not. These are the Pippenless years where MJ didn't make it out of the first round.

1985: Lost in the first round when MJ was just a rookie.

1986: Lost in the first round to the 86 Boston Celtics one of the greatest teams ever.

1987: Lost again in the first round to Larry Bird and the Boston Celtics.

So...A little context please.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by JasonM32

It doesn't make much sense to say this. There are way more variables in play than just Scottie being there or not. These are the Pippenless years where MJ didn't make it out of the first round.

1985: Lost in the first round when MJ was just a rookie.

1986: Lost in the first round to the 86 Boston Celtics one of the greatest teams ever.

1987: Lost again in the first round to Larry Bird and the Boston Celtics.

So...A little context please.

You mean to tell me that the 2015 Celtics aren't as GREAT as the 86 Celtics??? Puuuulease!

[Round Mound]

Originally Posted by groundsupport

Did MJ ever lose with Scottie? No.

Did Lebron lose 2 titles with 2 max players playing along side of him? Yes.

So max players equals max efficiency? I'm not saying that Bosh and Wade were role players, but in 2013-14...

[spurs50fan]

Originally Posted by JasonM32

It doesn't make much sense to say this. There are way more variables in play than just Scottie being there or not. These are the Pippenless years where MJ didn't make it out of the first round.

1985: Lost in the first round when MJ was just a rookie.

1986: Lost in the first round to the 86 Boston Celtics one of the greatest teams ever.

1987: Lost again in the first round to Larry Bird and the Boston Celtics.

So...A little context please.

It sounded good at first......MJ needs Pippen to get out of the first round!! Maybe not against the Bobcats though

Which season did MJ break his foot?

[JasonM32]

Originally Posted by spurs50fan

Which season did MJ break his foot?

1985-86. Was back in plenty of time for the playoffs though.

[joebalazek]

Originally Posted by JasonM32

It doesn't make much sense to say this. There are way more variables in play than just Scottie being there or not. These are the Pippenless years where MJ didn't make it out of the first round.

1985: Lost in the first round when MJ was just a rookie.

1986: Lost in the first round to the 86 Boston Celtics one of the greatest teams ever.

1987: Lost again in the first round to Larry Bird and the Boston Celtics.

So...A little context please.

Context could be added to anything to paint a picture that you want to. I firmly believe that Jordan is the best player of all time. However I also think it's laughable to downplay the cast that he had. He had one of the two best coaches of all time. He has Scottie Pippen, who for my money, is one of the most underrated players of all time. He was a devastating defensive player. That' allowed Jordan to not have to cover the other teams best player. I'm on my phone and not near a computer but by my estimate there was no less than three Hall of Famer's Including Jackson on any of the team that won championships. Kukoc and grant were better than anyone seems to remember. I think LeBron this is one of the five best players ever and that he is doing things that nobody else has ever done. When Jordan "retired" the first time the Bulls won 55 games without him.

I hear people down play the 2nd title because Ray Allen bailed him out. That's pretty accurate, but it conveniently forgets about John paxson and Steve Kerr and the shots they hit.

I just want some perspective, on both sides of the discussion.

BTW, I'm a Wizards fan who had legitimate hate for lebron in the past

[pip33tomj23]

Originally Posted by joebalazek

Context could be added to anything to paint a picture that you want to. I firmly believe that Jordan is the best player of all time. However I also think it's laughable to downplay the cast that he had. He had one of the two best coaches of all time. He has Scottie Pippen, who for my money, is one of the most underrated players of all time. He was a devastating defensive player. That' allowed Jordan to not have to cover the other teams best player. I'm on my phone and not near a computer but by my estimate there was no less than three Hall of Famer's Including Jackson on any of the team that won championships. Kukoc and grant were better than anyone seems to remember. I think LeBron this is one of the five best players ever and that he is doing things that nobody else has ever done. When Jordan "retired" the first time the Bulls won 55 games without him.

I hear people down play the 2nd title because Ray Allen bailed him out. That's pretty accurate, but it conveniently forgets about John paxson and Steve Kerr and the shots they hit.

I just want some perspective, on both sides of the discussion.

BTW, I'm a Wizards fan who had legitimate hate for lebron in the past

The difference is, these guys were not well known prior to MJ. MJ stayed the course, helped them as players by pushing them to the limit. Sometimes, you need someone to get in your face.

LeBron has proven himself to work only with proven players now... first Wade/Bosh and the rest of Miami and then now Kyrie/Love and all the veterans.

That being said, LeBron is still a helluva a player.

But getting into the rest of your points...

Phil Jackson was not anywhere near a known entity when he took over the Bulls gig. I'll give you Grant even though he was young, he was solid especially in the early 90's. Pippen is definitely underrated, no doubt. Though he had his share of issues. (migraines in big games? ego issues?)

The difference between the Paxson and Kerr shots and Ray Allen's was that they weren't make the shot or go home. If Kerr misses that shot, you play another game... same with Paxson. Those were both games 6's with the Bulls up 3-2. Ray Allen's shot was when the heat were down 3-2. His shot saved the series. Paxson's and Kerr's did not.

That being said... I think LeBron is an unbelievable talent, just not as great as MJ. BUT, he is a force that we may never see again in the league. Just wish he wouldn't use his off arm so much... haha

[JP Lakers Fan]

The other big difference you forgot between Paxson & Kerr shots and Ray Allen shot is that Jordan made the right basketball play and decided to pass them the ball.
Ray Allen shot came after Lebron missed a 3pts shot and the Heat lucky rebound.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by JP Lakers Fan

The other big difference you forgot between Paxson & Kerr shots and Ray Allen shot is that Jordan made the right basketball play and decided to pass them the ball.
Ray Allen shot came after Lebron missed a 3pts shot and the Heat lucky rebound.

I agree.

The Ray Ray literally saved those finals for MIA.

Whereas CHI wouldn't have lost if paxson or Kerr missed.

[Round Mound]

Originally Posted by pip33tomj23

The difference is, these guys were not well known prior to MJ. MJ stayed the course, helped them as players by pushing them to the limit. Sometimes, you need someone to get in your face.

Are you talking about Pippen and Horace Grant, who were college players before they played with MJ?

Or Rodman, who already had won 2 titles with the Pistons, was a 2-time All-star, 7-time All-Defensive team, 2-time DPOY, 4-time best rebounder, before he played with MJ?

Or Steve Kerr, who was the same sharpshooter for 5 years before he joined the Bulls?

Or Kukoc, who was a 3-time Euroleague winner, MVP of the Final Four, World Champion and MVP of the tournament with the Yougoslavian Junior Team (winning against Team USA in the final) in 1985, World Champion and MVP in 1987, 2-time silver medal in Olympics?

Or Ron Harper, who averaged 19.3ppg throughout 8 seasons before he joined the Bulls?

Or Bill Cartwright, who averaged 16.8ppg and 7.1rpg throughout 8 seasons before he joined the Bulls?

I'm confused....

[pip33tomj23]

Originally Posted by Round Mound

Are you talking about Pippen and Horace Grant, who were college players before they played with MJ?

Or Rodman, who already had won 2 titles with the Pistons, was a 2-time All-star, 7-time All-Defensive team, 2-time DPOY, 4-time best rebounder, before he played with MJ?

Or Steve Kerr, who was the same sharpshooter for 5 years before he joined the Bulls?

Or Kukoc, who was a 3-time Euroleague winner, MVP of the Final Four, World Champion and MVP of the tournament with the Yougoslavian Junior Team (winning against Team USA in the final) in 1985, World Champion and MVP in 1987, 2-time silver medal in Olympics?

Or Ron Harper, who averaged 19.3ppg throughout 8 seasons before he joined the Bulls?

Or Bill Cartwright, who averaged 16.8ppg and 7.1rpg throughout 8 seasons before he joined the Bulls?

I'm confused....

You act like these guys were gold when the Bulls signed them.

I can 100% guarantee you Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen would not have become the players they became without MJ. On top of, you can't blame MJ for the organization drafting well. (Kukoc, Pippen, Grant, etc...)

Bill Cartwright was a mediocre center at best. His best years were behind him when he came to Chicago.

Rodman was a complete nut job and a HUGE risk when he came to Chicago. He was on the verge of going to the Rodman we know today.

Ron Harper? He averaged 7 points in 95-6, 6 points in 96-7 and 9 points in 97-8. He was solid, but far from a top talent and was on the downside of his career. He scored well on bad teams... the Clippers, the team he was on before the Bulls, were dreadful.

Kerr was a great three point shooter before, during and after the Bulls. A solid role player... no different than a James Jones/Ray Allen.

The team was filled with role players other than MJ and Pippen. Rodman = role player with no offensive game, Kerr, Kukoc, Harper, are all role players.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by pip33tomj23

You act like these guys were gold when the Bulls signed them.

I can 100% guarantee you Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen would not have become the players they became without MJ. On top of, you can't blame MJ for the organization drafting well. (Kukoc, Pippen, Grant, etc...)

Bill Cartwright was a mediocre center at best. His best years were behind him when he came to Chicago.

Rodman was a complete nut job and a HUGE risk when he came to Chicago. He was on the verge of going to the Rodman we know today.

Ron Harper? He averaged 7 points in 95-6, 6 points in 96-7 and 9 points in 97-8. He was solid, but far from a top talent and was on the downside of his career. He scored well on bad teams... the Clippers, the team he was on before the Bulls, were dreadful.

Kerr was a great three point shooter before, during and after the Bulls. A solid role player... no different than a James Jones/Ray Allen.

The team was filled with role players other than MJ and Pippen. Rodman = role player with no offensive game, Kerr, Kukoc, Harper, are all role players.

I would agree with just about all of that except the Rodman was a role player part. Rodman, while limited offensively, was probably the best defensive player in the entire league and was the best rebounder. He was a huge gamble as you said but the gamble paid off. You don't take that risk on for a role player, you do for a HOF caliber guy like Rodman.

People forget what Phil was before Chicago and forget that he never won without the most elite players.

Kerr was as limited as they come. Great spot up shooter but that's it.

[Round Mound]

Originally Posted by pip33tomj23

You act like these guys were gold when the Bulls signed them.

No I don't. But saying that they all become good players thanks to MJ is equally ridiculous. I'm not trying to take credit away from MJ, but come on....

Cartwright must have become a mediocre center overnight; the season before he joined the Bulls, he averaged 18-8 in 34 minutes, playing all 82 games.

Ron Harper? 20-6-5 and 1.9stl the season before.

[pip33tomj23]

Originally Posted by GC1980

I would agree with just about all of that except the Rodman was a role player part. Rodman, while limited offensively, was probably the best defensive player in the entire league and was the best rebounder. He was a huge gamble as you said but the gamble paid off. You don't take that risk on for a role player, you do for a HOF caliber guy like Rodman.

People forget what Phil was before Chicago and forget that he never won without the most elite players.

Kerr was as limited as they come. Great spot up shooter but that's it.

I agree with your most of your assessment of Rodman. He was one dimensional player... a hell of a rebounder and an elite defender, but a liability offensively. Certainly not a guy I'd ever build around, but would want as a supporting piece on my team.

He may be a HOF role player, but still a role player nonetheless. How else would you classify him as a player? You certainly don't build around him, he's a piece that you use to build around someone else.

[pip33tomj23]

Originally Posted by Round Mound

No I don't. But saying that they all become good players thanks to MJ is equally ridiculous. I'm not trying to take credit away from MJ, but come on....

Cartwright must have become a mediocre center overnight; the season before he joined the Bulls, he averaged 18-8 in 34 minutes, playing all 82 games.

Ron Harper? 20-6-5 and 1.9stl the season before.

I think that Pippen, Grant and Kukoc reached greater heights with MJ pushing them as compared to them playing with another team or another all star player... yes. So yep, I think they became much better players as a result.

In similar ways, like LeBron making average players look much better compared to when they didn't play with LeBron.

But lets go back to the Bulls role players...

Cartwright averaged 9 points and 6 boards in the Bulls first championship year. His first year was 12 and 6. That is 25% down from the previous 18/8 year in NY... His production in Chicago essentially declined year over year. He was on the downside of his career.

As I pointed out, Harper was the exact same way. Declining numbers with the Bulls.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by pip33tomj23

I think that Pippen, Grant and Kukoc reached greater heights with MJ pushing them as compared to them playing with another team or another all star player... yes. So yep, I think they became much better players as a result.

In similar ways, like LeBron making average players look much better compared to when they didn't play with LeBron.

But lets go back to the Bulls role players...

Cartwright averaged 9 points and 6 boards in the Bulls first championship year. His first year was 12 and 6. That is 25% down from the previous 18/8 year in NY... His production in Chicago essentially declined year over year. He was on the downside of his career.

As I pointed out, Harper was the exact same way. Declining numbers with the Bulls.

Harper also dealt with some major injuries I believe, he was no mug, but he certainly was never the same player as that 20/6/5

[Round Mound]

Originally Posted by pip33tomj23

But lets go back to the Bulls role players...

Cartwright averaged 9 points and 6 boards in the Bulls first championship year. His first year was 12 and 6. That is 25% down from the previous 18/8 year in NY... His production in Chicago essentially declined year over year. He was on the downside of his career.

As I pointed out, Harper was the exact same way. Declining numbers with the Bulls.

So the declining numbers had nothing to do with the fact that they had a lot less touches with MJ alongside them (especially true for Harper)?

What does it have to do with what you said about these players being not wel known before they joined the Bulls? So you're saying that MJ made them better, that they were on downside of their careers, but they become better known with MJ alongside them?

[Round Mound]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

Harper also dealt with some major injuries I believe, he was no mug, but he certainly was never the same player as that 20/6/5

But MJ made him a better player

[pip33tomj23]

Originally Posted by Round Mound

But MJ made him a better player

Who said MJ made Harper better? Harper, like Cartwright, were on the downsides of their career. Most players on the second half of their career accept their role which means less production.

I've never said Harper or Cartwright were awful players, they were just role players during their tenures with the Bulls.