2020 Politics Thread - Enter At Your Own Risk - RULES IN OP

[Jopeal]

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2021693

If anyone wants to know why I post gifs and memes in response to the posts in this thread, it's because I consider some of you painfully under educated on race issues.

[rman112]

Originally Posted by Jopeal

Why does anyone help anybody else? Just curious.

Why does the government do anything to help its citizens ever?

Because they're genuinely kind and don't like to see others struggle. Because they are down themselves and want to feel better. Because they want the social appearance of being a good/better person. There are a lot of reasons.

I don't believe the government is responsible for my life. There's certainly exceptions where young kids literally don't have any options. But you're talking about things like bad, absentee parents. Drug addict parents. That's not a systemic racism problem. That's a bad parent problem. And the kids suffer.

[Jopeal]

"For example, most Democrats (82%) and independents (59%) say racism is a big problem nationally, while only a quarter (25%) of Republicans say so."

[rman112]

Originally Posted by Jopeal

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2021693

If anyone wants to know why I post gifs and memes in response to the posts in this thread, it's because I consider some of you painfully under educated on race issues.

Under educated =/= Not viewing problems through a specific, focused lens

[rman112]

Am I wrong, or are the areas that you'd most likely point to as victims of systemic racism Democratic-led cities, both currently and historically?

[Jopeal]

Originally Posted by rman112

Under educated =/= Not viewing problems through a specific, focused lens

Right. Not viewing problems through the lens of the people (Black people) who are literally protesting about the problem.

The denial here is basically akin to saying black people are liars.

[Yanks23]

You know that Native americans are poorer than African Americans and Latinos are about the same level as African americans. Is their racism against them also and are they killing each other at the same rates?

[rman112]

Originally Posted by Jopeal

Right. Not viewing problems through the lens of the people (Black people) who are literally protesting about the problem.

The denial here is basically akin to saying black people are liars.

You've presented the argument of systemic racism as 50 different things; essentially all-encompassing. Gangs, poverty, deadbeat Dad, druggie Mom, parents' mental health. Police violence. Individual choice, or lack thereof. War zone upbringing, etc. etc.. All out of anyone's control, and seemingly responsible for everyone that has a problematic life.

[DegaBama]

Originally Posted by Jopeal

Right. Not viewing problems through the lens of the people (Black people) who are literally protesting about the problem.

The denial here is basically akin to saying black people are liars.

You love race baiting. No one is saying black people are liars. I just don't see anything in our government that shows the systemic racism. Now, I'll agree more funds could help these areas out, and education needs to be overhaul for everyone. But I don't see where society has the systemic racism. I guess since I'm white though, it's expected of me to think that way.

[Yanks23]

Let's go back the beginning of the problem - how about you dont have unprotected sex, get a women pregnant and leave. When did taking responsibility become "systemic racism"? The cycle doesnt continue if you take responsibility or just buy protection.

[TheFrenzy]

Those who subscribe to omnipotent systems of oppression often struggle to explain how such systems came about in the first place.

If the current system of oppression was in fact constructed by people making choices, then how did those people manage to break free of their own systems?

Or, if the current system of oppression is just to the offspring of older systems of oppression and the next system will only be shaped by the current, then what hope is there for the future?

At some point, if you're advocating for people to make a change, you have to make room in your worldview for people to be able to make changes—even at the expense of all-encompassing systems.

[Jopeal]

Originally Posted by rman112

You've presented the argument of systemic racism as 50 different things; essentially all-encompassing. Gangs, poverty, deadbeat Dad, druggie Mom, parents' mental health. Police violence. Individual choice, or lack thereof. War zone upbringing, etc. etc.. All out of anyone's control, and seemingly responsible for everyone that has a problematic life.

Individual choice definitely exists. That's why there is hope for the future.
It's giving all citizens an opportunity to make the right choices through certain forms of assistance to account for economic, educational, & justice systems that were put into place before certain groups of people had equal rights in this country, and some that were put into place more recently.
It doesn't mean that anyone is incapable. It just means some things still need to be reconciled from our difficult history with racial inequality.

Originally Posted by DegaBama

You love race baiting. No one is saying black people are liars. I just don't see anything in our government that shows the systemic racism. Now, I'll agree more funds could help these areas out, and education needs to be overhaul for everyone. But I don't see where society has the systemic racism. I guess since I'm white though, it's expected of me to think that way.

"Race-bating stirs up, or baits, racial hatred."

Who am I stirring up hatred towards?

Black people are saying systemic racism exists for innumerable reasons, some of which I have linked to in this thread, but many more exist. Black people (and many others) are protesting against systems of historic and present racial inequality.
By denying systemic racism you are literally saying that the people involved in seeking equality are full of.....

Yes the last sentence hit the nail on the head.

[Jopeal]

Originally Posted by TheFrenzy

Those who subscribe to omnipotent systems of oppression often struggle to explain how such systems came about in the first place.

If the current system of oppression was in fact constructed by people making choices, then how did those people manage to break free of their own systems?

Or, if the current system of oppression is just to the offspring of older systems of oppression and the next system will only be shaped by the current, then what hope is there for the future?

At some point, if you're advocating for people to make a change, you have to make room in your worldview for people to be able to make changes—even at the expense of all-encompassing systems.

What ridiculous riddle is this? Omnipotent? LOL
It's just recognition and advocacy for improvement, rather than denial that anything could be done to improve.

[rman112]

But what you're saying is the oppositnof individual choice. If you convince people that their situation is out of their control, you lower expectations and push them toward the system that you're also saying is racist.

Parent's problems aren't the fault of the child. I agree with that 100%. But if you're telling me that Dad left and Mom is strung out because of systemic racism.. that's where you lose me.

[rman112]

Originally Posted by Jopeal

What ridiculous riddle is this? Omnipotent? LOL
It's just recognition and advocacy for improvement, rather than denial that anything could be done to improve.

Am I wrong, or is the area for improvement greatest if you can get kids growing up in sh*tty situations to happen less? As opposed to deciding what to do when it does happen

And if that's the case, I don't see how starting at home isn't the best way to do that.

[Jopeal]

Originally Posted by Yanks23

You know that Native americans are poorer than African Americans and Latinos are about the same level as African americans. Is their racism against them also and are they killing each other at the same rates?

"since 1999, but for American Indian and Alaska Native women and men, the increase is even greater: 139 percent and 71 percent, respectively, according to an analysis from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Health Statistics."

"Native communities experience higher rates of suicide compared to all other racial and ethnic groups in the U.S., with suicide being the eighth leading cause of death for American Indians and Alaska Natives across all ages. For Native youth ages 10 to 24, suicide is the second leading cause of death; and the Native youth suicide rate is 2.5 times higher than the overall national average, making these rates the highest across all ethnic and racial groups."



You are right that we've treated Native people horribly. They have such little representation in the country that their issues are rarely addressed.

[Jopeal]

Originally Posted by rman112

But what you're saying is the oppositnof individual choice. If you convince people that their situation is out of their control, you lower expectations and push them toward the system that you're also saying is racist.

Parent's problems aren't the fault of the child. I agree with that 100%. But if you're telling me that Dad left and Mom is strung out because of systemic racism.. that's where you lose me.

It's a combination of both. Providing improved assistance in areas that people are seeking reform and recognizing that ultimately a person will have to take actions themselves to improve the situation.

This is a way too simplistic analogy, but if someone wants to get good at baseball they need to put in a lot of time on the field. Good coaching, clinics, equipment, support, time, diet etc. all still contribute to the players improvement.

Originally Posted by rman112

Am I wrong, or is the area for improvement greatest if you can get kids growing up in sh*tty situations to happen less? As opposed to deciding what to do when it does happen

And if that's the case, I don't see how starting at home isn't the best way to do that.

I'd agree.

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by Jopeal

What ridiculous riddle is this? Omnipotent? LOL
It's just recognition and advocacy for improvement, rather than denial that anything could be done to improve.

As you yourself so eloquently put it:

Originally Posted by Jopeal

"THEY LITERALLY DON'T KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG. That, my friend, is systemic racism."

Your hyperbolic and unhinged rhetoric may have misrepresented your actual thoughts and I'd be glad to entertain any corrections you would like to make.

[Jopeal]

Originally Posted by TheFrenzy

As you yourself so eloquently put it:

Your hyperbolic and unhinged rhetoric may have misrepresented your actual thoughts and I'd be glad to entertain any corrections you would like to make.

Since you quoted my post, what was I referring to in that specific piece that you seem so adamant to focus on amidst a sea of posts I've made?

This is a rudimentary debate tactic used to throw the dialogue off course, but I'll entertain your nonsense for the moment if you can contextualize the quote.

I'll reckon a guess you're seeking to create some false idea that I'm referring to an entire demographic of people, which is far from the truth.

Amazing that you completely misquoted me by the way. Very sneaky Tucker Carlson-like way of building an argument.

[rman112]

Originally Posted by Jopeal

It's a combination of both. Providing improved assistance in areas that people are seeking reform and recognizing that ultimately a person will have to take actions themselves to improve the situation.

This is a way too simplistic analogy, but if someone wants to get good at baseball they need to put in a lot of time on the field. Good coaching, clinics, equipment, support, time, diet etc. all still contribute to the players improvement.

So are you saying that your main issue in this case is the lack of government funding?

I think the main issue with an analogy like that is that some people are not going to be good at baseball no matter what. It's kind of a nature vs. nurture debate too, no?

IMO, what it boils down to is how much of these issues you think are fixable by outside means (in this case, gvt).

[Jopeal]

Originally Posted by rman112

So are you saying that your main issue in this case is the lack od government funding?

I think the main issue with an analogy like that is that some people are not going to be good at baseball no matter what. It's kind of a nature vs. nurture debate too, no?

IMO, what it boils down to is how much of these issues you think are fixable by outside means (in this case, gvt).

We need first to understand and accept the issues that still perpetuate systemic racism, and then find means of addressing them.

In terms of policing and our justice system, it can't be fixed without some type of reform.

In terms of education, there needs to be some reform whether it be more fair allocation of funds in impoverished area or more of a focus nationwide on educational improvement, not just for black people but for the entire country.

There are more issues at play than I'm even versed enough to discuss properly.

The issue I believe is at the absolute core of the problem is poverty, but it intertwines with many other issues both current and historic.

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by Jopeal

Since you quoted my post, what was I referring to in that specific piece that you seem so adamant to focus on amidst a sea of posts I've made.

It certainly stands out among even the sea of ridiculous posts that have been made.

Originally Posted by Jopeal

but I'll entertain [my own nonsensical words] for the moment...

I await your exposition.

[rman112]

Originally Posted by Jopeal

We need first to understand and accept the issues that still perpetuate systemic racism, and then find means of addressing them.

In terms of policing and our justice system, it can't be fixed without some type of reform.

In terms of education, there needs to be some reform whether it be more fair allocation of funds in impoverished area or more of a focus nationwide on educational improvement, not just for black people but for the entire country.

There are more issues at play than I'm even versed enough to discuss properly.

The issue I believe is at the absolute core of the problem is poverty, but it intertwines with many other issues both current and historic.

What IS systemic racism, though? It just seems like what you're saying is that any possible reason for someone to struggle through life gets smushed together to form 'systemic racism'.

[rman112]

If it's poverty, every immigrant story talks about arriving in America with little or nothing in their pockets. That's not a race thing. And hell, which immigrant population WASN'T discriminated against?

[Jopeal]

Originally Posted by TheFrenzy

It certainly stands out among even the sea of ridiculous posts that have been made.

I await your exposition.

Sure, I'll answer my own question because you seem lost as usual.

It was the implication that a teenager growing up in poverty in a gang-ridden area of Chicago with no familial support system, a poor public education, and a history of traumatic experiences is not properly equipped to make good moral decisions.

Or to requote myself: "THEY DON'T KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG."

You have managed to pick the smallest point to focus on, while ignoring a plethora of other information and still cannot make any type of cohesive argument. Shocking.