BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by gradedeflator

Can someone explain to me the issue with BgS slabbing that mox pearl in Rudy’s video?

I get the card was altered but didn’t the slab say altered? If so, that’s not deceiving, is it?

My point is BGs will slab a card if you pay. If the label isn’t misleading, I don’t see the problem.

Appreciate any help on what I’m missing. Thanks!

It's not an authentic Beta card. They took a Collector's Edition card, cut the front off, and glued a Beta (or some other black bordered) back on to it.

You know how Topps makes blank back 1/1s that crazy people pay good money for? This would be the equivalent of somebody slicing a 2018 Acuna Heritage base in half, gluing a piece of blank cardboard on the back, and having BGS slab it as a blank back authentic altered.

[Brobocop]

Originally Posted by gradedeflator

Can someone explain to me the issue with BgS slabbing that mox pearl in Rudy’s video?

I get the card was altered but didn’t the slab say altered? If so, that’s not deceiving, is it?

My point is BGs will slab a card if you pay. If the label isn’t misleading, I don’t see the problem.

Appreciate any help on what I’m missing. Thanks!

It's not a real Mox Pearl. It's a reprint. They took the reprint, rounded off the edges, glued a normal Magic card to the back of it, and passed it off. The reprint they used has squared off edges and a gold border on the back.

BGS graded it altered due to the bad cut on the top right hand corner. They missed the fact that:

-It's a reprint, and
-Much thicker than a normal Magic card

The scammer probably made that bad cut to distract from the fact that it had been rebacked, and sadly it worked. Rudy also goes over the finer details on why he knows the Mox is fake when comparing it to the real Beta card and the Collector's Edition card.

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by mrbasepauly

Damn, walk away from this thread for a few days and the #@#@#@#@ just get shadier and shadier. Anyone who buys Leaf products from now on, look at what you're supporting.

What has Beckett's grading response been to all of this?

[stryk]

Originally Posted by gradedeflator

Can someone explain to me the issue with BgS slabbing that mox pearl in Rudy’s video?

I get the card was altered but didn’t the slab say altered? If so, that’s not deceiving, is it?

My point is BGs will slab a card if you pay. If the label isn’t misleading, I don’t see the problem.

Appreciate any help on what I’m missing. Thanks!

The card consisted of a reprint front and an original back off a non Mox card. Neither the front or the back is an original Beta Mox card, but the card was labeled authentic.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Finally was able to watch the MTG video. Holy crap. Only two options there.



1. Nobody at BGS knows what a Magic card is supposed to look like.

2. Someone at BGS belongs in jail for fraudulently slabbing those fakes.

There isn’t any evidence of fraud, Beckett’s opinion was just wrong.

[Brobocop]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

There isn’t any evidence of fraud, Beckett’s opinion was just wrong.

How isn’t there potential evidence of fraud? The whole point of slabbing the card was to get it “authenticated” as authentic-altered. An altered card like that would still go for thousands. The person grading it is either an idiot or a criminal. Either way, BGS potentially introduced an untold amount of fake cards as real cards into the system. I think they really need to come forward with a statement now. To me, this is a bigger deal than the trimming stuff. May not go as far due to the sports card world being larger, but this is a pretty large scandal too.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by kyaa

Interesting. I was mostly igoring the MTG cards when I was researching Joe's submissions, but are people thinking they are also illegitimately graded or authenticated, and that perhaps the grader(s) doing this are grouping these illegitimate MTG cards with Joe's submissions?

I don't think Joe has anything to do with the MTG cards.

Why these MTG cards appear around some of his orders, (extremely suspicious on there own) is just another angle that was suggested looking into, based on the video this morning.
I didn't find any of these BGS serial numbers in a quick search but maybe Rudy (assuming he's been provided the info) or someone can have more success tracking these.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

[/B]

Maybe those two guys on the Beckett podcast will find time in between their comedy hour and actually provide some information on the next podcast.

As they are supposedly reading this thread. How about we provide some topics of discussion?

Here's a few of my concerns, as a Beckett customer.

As a trusted, unbiased third party grading service, why does Beckett think, grouping a former employees (or any preferred customers) cards by grade, while also providing statistically impossible "opinions" on those cards, would be an acceptable business decision?

Why do Joe's (former employee) submissions not appear to be processed in the same method as any other Beckett customers order would be processed. E.g. properly entered into the database, before the cards received grades. Level one of the standard, Fort Knox security procedure.

Anyone else have questions for Beckett?

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by auburn35

I don't think Joe has anything to do with the MTG cards.

Why these MTG cards appear around some of his orders, (extremely suspicious on there own) is just another angle that was suggested looking into, based on the video this morning.
I didn't find any of these BGS serial numbers in a quick search but maybe Rudy (assuming he's been provided the info) or someone can have more success tracking these.

I agree Joe is not a MTG scammer. However I think what this thread has opened up is that there are unexplained anomalies in certain BGS orders, which have, at minimum, the appearance of impropriety.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

How isn’t there potential evidence of fraud? The whole point of slabbing the card was to get it “authenticated” as authentic-altered. An altered card like that would still go for thousands. The person grading it is either an idiot or a criminal. Either way, BGS potentially introduced an untold amount of fake cards as real cards into the system. I think they really need to come forward with a statement now. To me, this is a bigger deal than the trimming stuff. May not go as far due to the sports card world being larger, but this is a pretty large scandal too.

You're starting from the standpoint that grading services are infallible and that they try to be infallible.

But they only offer their opinions, they do the best they can. Most of the time they're right on, but not always.

Many people just pay for slabs as if the grading companies are infallible, which has always been wrong.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

I've been thinking about this. I think if I continue in the hobby, I won't buy a card for a price that I'm willing to lose if the card is worthless. I have some cast signed posters that I got off eBay with BGS and photo proof, yet I still only spent as much money that if those autographs were fake, I could live with what I spent. I don't know if that makes sense lol.

I guess my point is, I would not look to graded cards as an investment. Who knows how far this rabbit hole goes or if it does anything to grading long term (my guess is that this blows over quicker than it should).

cards are for enjoyment.

always have been.

[ThoseBackPages]

you know what's "Funny' about this BGS MTG stuff?

BGS is, FAR AND AWAY, #1 for Slabbed MTG sales. BLOWS PSA AWAY, not even close

the opposite is true for Pokemon

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

you know what's "Funny' about this BGS MTG stuff?

BGS is, FAR AND AWAY, #1 for Slabbed MTG sales. BLOWS PSA AWAY, not even close

the opposite is true for Pokemon

That is really scary, sounds like I don't want to know how all that came to be.

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Maybe those two guys on the Beckett podcast will find time in between their comedy hour and actually provide some information on the next podcast.

As they are supposedly reading this thread. How about we provide some topics of discussion?

Here's a few of my concerns, as a Beckett customer.

As a trusted, unbiased third party grading service, why does Beckett think, grouping a former employees (or any preferred customers) cards by grade, while also providing statistically impossible "opinions" on those cards, would be an acceptable business decision?

Why do Joe's (former employee) submissions not appear to be processed in the same method as any other Beckett customers order would be processed. E.g. properly entered into the database, before the cards received grades. Level one of the standard, Fort Knox security procedure.

Anyone else have questions for Beckett?

Yes, id like a walk through of the process with video footage. Modern footage not a 1990's PSA video.

I want to see exactly how the cards are dropped off and processed at each stage.

Don't fluff it up for us either i wan't real day to day action unfiltered.

I want to see how a same day order is handled vs. others.

How does one person get 81 consecutive BGS 10's?

[cking]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

How does one person get 81 consecutive BGS 10's?

Ridiculous.

I think the next large sub Joe is going to submit he should do it thru a group sub with a bunch of people here.

Lets see how he does then.

That is a pretty easy way to prove everyone wrong and clear your name if you ask me.

[tonedef2oo8]

Originally Posted by stryk

QUOTE FROM BG Changing his companies Rules because of Joe

"I can assure you our company procedures going forward will limit purchases of new products (and pricing for employees will remain at dealer direct pricing)..

While in this case the employee received no special consideration, I am aware of the concerns brought up and have addressed them moving forward.

BG"

Hmm funny how the guy forgot to mention his association with leaf yet mentions their shipping procedures to throw people off. Strange behavior for a proud employee of a growing company.


How many times are we going to allow these guys to repeat the same crap over and over? So in 2013 Brian said basically the same crap about employees and changed nothing figuring us stupid collectors would forget. But they found the time to threaten to sue collectors, force one to publicly apologize, fill up pm boxes like a crazy ex and tell us he’s made 20 million a year. Enough is enough go away razor 2.0

[Biggamer86]

I have a suggestion but it'd be costly as hell and ballsy but someone trusted buy the cheapest black label 10 that's not numbered from this guy and resubmit it and see how it grades again. I know different graders grade differently but surely a 10/10 black label would be close to getting that again and not like a random 9 on centering or something.

[gradedeflator]

Originally Posted by stryk

The card consisted of a reprint front and an original back off a non Mox card. Neither the front or the back is an original Beta Mox card, but the card was labeled authentic.

Thanks everyone who answered my question and educated me. Makes sense!

[ThoseBackPages]

watched that Rudy BGS cracking video, man that is a bad look

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by cking

Ridiculous.

I think the next large sub Joe is going to submit he should do it thru a group sub with a bunch of people here.

Lets see how he does then.

That is a pretty easy way to prove everyone wrong and clear your name if you ask me.

This would work assuming the cards he included were commonly graded cards. Otherwise too easy to tell his contact to look out for his cards. Joe often grades cards others would never even consider grading.

[brendanb438]

What really makes me sick is looking at what even the collector edition Power 9 cards go for now on eBay. About 4 years ago I sold off a set of those as individual cards along with almost 100 revised dual lands with everything in NM/mint condition. I made a killing off of these because they were from a collection I flipped from a Stanford professor I stumbled across on eBay. But damn what MTG cards are now going for compared to even 4 years ago.

Here is a pic of some of those dual lands.



But yes Beckett needs to fire whoever graded those fake cards. Going way way back when I used to play MTG on the Pro Tour and Grand Prix levels we were at GP Pittsburgh when someone had what we though was a fake Beta Emerald. I placed a cash bet at the time of double what it was worth that I could rip it in half and prove it was a rebacked counterfeit. Sure enough it was.

[kyaa]

I did some more research and want to shed light on some other suspicious eBay accounts. Here is data from Terapeak on the top sellers of Black Labels, their quantity of Black Labels, BGS 10s, and 9.5s, along with analysis of each account.

Seller
wjc75056 (Joe) BL: 196 BGS 10: 539 BGS 9.5: 651

Probstein123 BL: 164 BGS 10: 1,728 BGS 9.5: 17,797

Pwcc_auctions BL: 159 BGS 10: 1,232 BGS 9.5: 7,236

eeobe08 BL: 85 BGS 10: 97 BGS 9.5: 143

nogumjustcards BL: 33 BGS 10: 264 BGS 9.5: 482

lbj2016 BL: 29 BGS 10: < 10 BGS 9.5: 62

w***y BL: 26 BGS 10: 87 BGS 9.5: 772

ruffelton4 BL: 25 BGS 10: < 10 BGS 9.5: 127

fanaticinvestments BL: 20 BGS 10: < 10 BGS 9.5: < 50

I believe the 4 unbolded accounts are legitimate and not receiving artificially inflated grades from BGS. The italicized account, nogumjustcards, is interesting. There is a large percentage of 10s and Black Labels to 9.5s, and the seller's location is less than 10 miles from BGS headquarters. However, they seem to do a lot of grading and get a higher % of 9.5s than some of these others. Wouldn’t shock me if they had a “the more you grade the better your grades” deal though. But it is the other 4 accounts that deserve attention.

Wjc75056 is Joe. If you’re following this thread you know he is a former BGS employee with absurd, and in my opinion, illegitimate BGS submission results. As you can see, he sells the most Black Labels on eBay, more than the two biggest consigners. And he also has a troubling amount of BGS 10s. Taken together, he seems to have more BGS 10 and Black Labels than BGS 9.5s or lower.

Eeobe08 is another account with more Black Labels and 10s than 9.5s. The account also seems to be linked to Joe since Eeobe08 bids on a lot of cards connected to Joe, or buys Joe’s cards and then resells them on eBay almost instantly. Suspicious to say the least. Read some of HBMC’s posts in this thread for more info.

LBJ2016 is another suspicious account. Not only is there a high percentage of Black Labels, but some of the Black Labels recently sold through this account can be linked to Joe, like this Juan Soto card, which is only 2 serial numbers away from a Casey Mize card Joe recently sold. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Juan-Soto-R...YAAOSwRRJcs~5B

Fanaticinvestments currently has 9 cards for sale on eBay. 6 are Black Labels. https://www.ebay.com/sch/fanaticinve...p2047675.l2562
The only two recent sales are both Black Labels, one of which was a part of a submission we have linked to Joe: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-Bowman...p2047675.l2557
This account was relatively dormant for a year but now seems to be active again, almost as if it’s a new channel through which to sell some of these cards with questionable grades.

So to summarize, out of the top 9 sellers of Black Labels (and often, BGS 10s) on eBay in the past year:

4 of the accounts can be linked to Joe Clemons.
1 account that I'd call questionable.
2 are consigners, through whom we know Joe has sold cards.
Only 2 appear to be legitimate with nothing out of the ordinary going on.

Curious to hear from others, but personally, I think this is even more evidence that people should be skeptical before buying any Black Label or BGS 10, and especially in paying a premium for them. So many of them seem to originate with Joe or another account closely linked to him. Others sold though Probstein or PWCC may have been Joe’s originally. There is just no reason to believe that BGS 10s or Black Labels are “earned” grades, and that the cards are perceptibly better than 9.5s at all. Buyer beware.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by brendanb438

Here is a pic of some of those dual lands.

[Brobocop]

Originally Posted by brendanb438

What really makes me sick is looking at what even the collector edition Power 9 cards go for now on eBay. About 4 years ago I sold off a set of those as individual cards along with almost 100 revised dual lands with everything in NM/mint condition. I made a killing off of these because they were from a collection I flipped from a Stanford professor I stumbled across on eBay. But damn what MTG cards are now going for compared to even 4 years ago.

Here is a pic of some of those dual lands.



But yes Beckett needs to fire whoever graded those fake cards. Going way way back when I used to play MTG on the Pro Tour and Grand Prix levels we were at GP Pittsburgh when someone had what we though was a fake Beta Emerald. I placed a cash bet at the time of double what it was worth that I could rip it in half and prove it was a rebacked counterfeit. Sure enough it was.

Oh my god.

[base set]

Originally Posted by brendanb438

I placed a cash bet at the time of double what it was worth that I could rip it in half and prove it was a rebacked counterfeit. Sure enough it was.

Just out of curiosity, did the loser pay up?



I have been wondering if it would be possible to ‘scrape’ Worthpoint and compile all the BGS 10s sold in 2018, by state seller is shipping from. Could the 2 fields needed be populated by some sort of ‘crawler’ app? And would TX have a higher portion of those?