Read today that Negro League will be merged with MLB stats….

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by awz50

I mean they did have 4 hofers come from those leagues so no slouches

I never said they were slouches. I just said that I couldn't name any of them off the top of my head. I could go look them up in my Hall of Fame photos I took from my recent trip, but I would have an easier time naming Hall of Famers from Babe Ruth's time on then those 4 guys.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

Do you know for a fact that all of the Latin American and Native American players wouldn't construe this as an insult? It seems like people are insulted by everything now, so there's a good chance they would be insulted.

Probably but who knows you are correct

[JohnnyHatesJazz]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

Perhaps IQ’s here have suddenly dropped in the past 15 minutes, or are you trying to link my thoughts on CJ Stroud and his Father, with thoughts on the merger of Negro League and MLB stats?

I didn't post the link.

[TheFrenzy]

If it helps anyone, here is the timeline of sports & race in comparison to the rest of the country that I use when teaching.

In every case, pro sports were segregating much later than the nation's other institutions and de-segregating before those other institutions. They deserve more credit than they get.

(Note: The point about the Olympics is not referring to the segregated hotels and other facilities non-White athletes often had to use, but is referring strictly to who was allowed to participate—which was every American.)

[Chris P]

Originally Posted by Giroux

I think OP's post history and his tendency to delete old posts are the reasons people here aren't giving him the benefit of the doubt. There is definitely a real discussion to be had about the topic.

I guarantee you if he didn't use "woke" in his argument he wouldn't be viewed as the bad guy

[EBCollectibles]

Originally Posted by f2tornado

I don't have a strong opinion on the change, but after seeing the comment thread on Facebook attacking anyone who even modestly disagreed with the change, it was an easy choice to keep my two cents out of it. It's the sad state of the climate in this country. People cannot agree to disagree. As such, many just bow out of tough conversations when we should be having them. Nixon called it the silent majority.

If you don't agree with the ones that want the change you are absolutely going to be deemed a racist. I thought an opinion was an opinion but I guess not.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by TheFrenzy

If it helps anyone, here is the timeline of sports & race in comparison to the rest of the country that I use when teaching.

In every case, pro sports were segregating much later than the nation's other institutions and de-segregating before those other institutions. They deserve more credit than they get.

(Note: The point about the Olympics is not referring to the segregated hotels and other facilities non-White athletes often had to use, but is referring strictly to who was allowed to participate—which was every American.)

I was going to say the army wasn't even desegregated in WWII, 1948 in the graphic you posted.

[dcbaseballcards]

Ah, we got the old "if you integrate the statistics, how will future generations know that the Negro Leagues existed and that segregation existed."

For one, they wouldn't have known the Negro Leagues existed simply by looking at the prior MLB record book.

It's wild, but we have things called books, museums, and even baseball cards that can document and share history. While some of our special states may remove the history of segregation from textbooks out of fears of critical race theory (what happened to that? I guess WOKE is easier to spell), some of the states will still have books that teach history.

Now, a kid can read the record books and google Josh Gibson and learn about the Negro Leagues. I suspect those that want to "preserve" history while not talking about certain difficult parts of history, are not going to like this change. Shocking. And we have to remember not to call them racists (they don't like that!) because of freedom, I think.

[JohnnyHatesJazz]

Originally Posted by dcbaseballcards

Ah, we got the old "if you integrate the statistics, how will future generations know that the Negro Leagues existed and that segregation existed."

For one, they wouldn't have known the Negro Leagues existed simply by looking at the prior MLB record book.

It's wild, but we have things called books, museums, and even baseball cards that can document and share history. While some of our special states may remove the history of segregation from textbooks out of fears of critical race theory (what happened to that? I guess WOKE is easier to spell), some of the states will still have books that teach history.

Now, a kid can read the record books and google Josh Gibson and learn about the Negro Leagues. I suspect those that want to "preserve" history while not talking about certain difficult parts of history, are not going to like this change. Shocking. And we have to remember not to call them racists (they don't like that!) because of freedom, I think.

I was born well after the Negro leagues and knew it existed. Have not got around to reading about it much but if I wanted to I could have.

[cardsin47]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...s-record-books

.

[RiceBondsMT2Yng]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHatesJazz

I was born well after the Negro leagues and knew it existed. Have not got around to reading about it much but if I wanted to I could have.

I think that's part of the problem. Consider how many legendary players more casual fans of baseball - like myself - would have all but written off since they didn't appear on a baseball card or the stats we looked at all the time.

The Negro Leagues were absolutely watered down, but so was MLB and its precursors until integration. I don't know which league was more watered down but we should consider the possibility that they were at least equally watered down.

Some really well-informed folks may have been fine with a scarlet letter next to every stat achieved prior to integration, but a lot of folks like myself just consider Johnson, Mathewson, Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, etc the best of the best while also acknowledging some of the Negro League players were good, maybe great, but like, not national hero, god-level good. But logic and common sense tells us that there were god-level players in the Negro leagues. They're just not as hallowed or acknowledged or even known (to you original point).

I don't know where I stand on this development because I'm not informed enough, but I do know that if I see Josh Gibson's name on a list of numbers near or above Ruth, that is going to transform my reality. And whether we can ever get a fair hearing on where Gibson falls in relation to Ruth, it's a really powerful thing that's happening here.

For the casual fan. Like myself.

[JohnnyHatesJazz]

Originally Posted by RiceBondsMT2Yng

I think that's part of the problem. Consider how many legendary players more casual fans of baseball - like myself - would have all but written off since they didn't appear on a baseball card or the stats we looked at all the time.

The Negro Leagues were absolutely watered down, but so was MLB and its precursors until integration. I don't know which league was more watered down but we should consider the possibility that they were at least equally watered down.

Some really well-informed folks may have been fine with a scarlet letter next to every stat achieved prior to integration, but a lot of folks like myself just consider Johnson, Mathewson, Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, etc the best of the best while also acknowledging some of the Negro League players were good, maybe great, but like, not national hero, god-level good. But logic and common sense tells us that there were god-level players in the Negro leagues. They're just not as hallowed or acknowledged or even known (to you original point).

I don't know where I stand on this development because I'm not informed enough, but I do know that if I see Josh Gibson's name on a list of numbers near or above Ruth, that is going to transform my reality. And whether we can ever get a fair hearing on where Gibson falls in relation to Ruth, it's a really powerful thing that's happening here.

For the casual fan. Like myself.

I'm down for a Josh Gibson biopic. Tired of all these cash grabbing sequels and remakes.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by RiceBondsMT2Yng

I think that's part of the problem. Consider how many legendary players more casual fans of baseball - like myself - would have all but written off since they didn't appear on a baseball card or the stats we looked at all the time.

The Negro Leagues were absolutely watered down, but so was MLB and its precursors until integration. I don't know which league was more watered down but we should consider the possibility that they were at least equally watered down.

Some really well-informed folks may have been fine with a scarlet letter next to every stat achieved prior to integration, but a lot of folks like myself just consider Johnson, Mathewson, Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, etc the best of the best while also acknowledging some of the Negro League players were good, maybe great, but like, not national hero, god-level good. But logic and common sense tells us that there were god-level players in the Negro leagues. They're just not as hallowed or acknowledged or even known (to you original point).

I don't know where I stand on this development because I'm not informed enough, but I do know that if I see Josh Gibson's name on a list of numbers near or above Ruth, that is going to transform my reality. And whether we can ever get a fair hearing on where Gibson falls in relation to Ruth, it's a really powerful thing that's happening here.

For the casual fan. Like myself.

Gibson was known as the “Black Babe Ruth” and in some ways, what he did relative to the other Negro Leaguers is on par with what Ruth did to the AL. For example, Gibson led the Negro Leagues in HRs 11 times and Ruth did it 12 times. I have Gibson top 5 all-time.

My issue is putting him at the top of the Batting Average list when he has fewer ABs than Joe Jackson and Lefty O’Doul who are not on the all-time AVG list. He just doesn’t have enough ABs on record to qualify. MLB needs to address that.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

They will not incorporate the Mexican or Japanese leagues because, historically, they are not a Major League.

Really? There haven't been times when those leagues reached levels that were comparable to MLB?:

One irony of the floodgates Rickey opened by signing Robinson, is that "organized baseball" was still fending off the efforts of the Mexican League, which had been raiding the majors, enticing players to jump their contracts to play South of the Border.

Rickey was all too willing to raid the Negro leagues of players under contract, much as the Mexican League had done to MLB.

"That’s exactly what’s going on," Kendrick said. "They (Mexican League teams) were starting to bring all this talent to Mexico, and they essentially do the same thing to the Negro leagues."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...7/11082330002/

Originally Posted by Skipscards

It took decades before baseball became fully integrated. It took 12 years before every team even had at least one black player. If they had intended to put the Negro Leagues out of business, they would have opened the flood gates. If you want to see what it looked like for the MLB to force a competing league out of business, check out the Federal League. The MLB literally forced them out of business whereas the Negro Leagues continued to operate for another decade post-integration.

You know the reason why MLB didn't open the flood gates -- they essentially had a racial quota and didn't want too many black players on their teams:

The unofficial quota system was expressed by (Elijah) Green in Danny Peary’s book “We Played The Game”: “Earl Wilson and I were roommates each time he was brought up to the majors. Naturally, in those days, if a team had three Blacks and two were roommates, the third one could be sent back to the minors. It was two by two.”

https://baseballhall.org/discover/Wi...-major-leagues

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Gibson was known as the “Black Babe Ruth” and in some ways, what he did relative to the other Negro Leaguers is on par with what Ruth did to the AL. For example, Gibson led the Negro Leagues in HRs 11 times and Ruth did it 12 times. I have Gibson top 5 all-time.

My issue is putting him at the top of the Batting Average list when he has fewer ABs than Joe Jackson and Lefty O’Doul who are not on the all-time AVG list. He just doesn’t have enough ABs on record to qualify. MLB needs to address that.

It has to be noted that Negro League seasons were MUCH shorter than MLB seasons....Gibson only played 602 games TOTAL in his career...i.e. less than four complete MLB seasons.

And because the Negro Leagues were more barnstorming tours than real leagues (teams did not play the same number of games in a season, for example), his rate stats need to be analyzed within that context.

Was Gibson the best hitter in the Negro Leagues? Clearly.

Should his rate stats be ranked higher than Babe Ruth's, when Ruth played more than four times as many games as Gibson did (2503 vs. 602)? I'm not so sure about that.

[fabiani12333]

One negative consequence of integrating the Negro League stats into MLB's is that some all-time Negro League record holders are now far down the list.

[mfw13]

Just curious now how MLB is going to handle the Japanese League.

Does Ichiro become the all-time hits leader?
Does Sadaharu Oh become the all-time HR leader?

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Just curious now how MLB is going to handle the Japanese League.

Does Ichiro become the all-time hits leader?
Does Sadaharu Oh become the all-time HR leader?

they should

[fabiani12333]

One league that was considered comparable to MLB was the Pacific Coast League:

The Pacific Coast League eventually would be regarded by many as “the third major league,” and prompt MLB to finally realize in 1958 that there was a geographic void to be filled, resulting in the relocation of the Dodgers from Brooklyn to Los Angeles and the Giants from Upper Manhattan to San Francisco.
...
the circuit enjoyed several decades of prosperity, in some instances drawing bigger crowds and outbidding big-league clubs for skilled players.

Roughly 60 members of the Baseball Hall of Fame have PCL ties. Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams began their Cooperstown journeys there.

There were times when the PCL proved to be ahead of the curve. One example being when it staged its first night game on June 10, 1930 in Sacramento – a full five years before an MLB team played under the lights.
...
And the salaries they received often were competitive with what American and National League clubs were paying. That, along with a less onerous travel schedule, prompted many players to eschew big league opportunities.

https://baseballhall.org/discover/pa...ve-its-destiny

[mjekase]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

Can we at least stop falsely proclaiming the MLB as "white only" prior to Jackie Robinson. There were at least around 50 Latin American players in MLB prior to Jackie Robinson. And the first Native American debuted 50 years prior to Jackie Robinson. Calling it a "white only" league is an insult to all of them.

It’s not as simple as that. When you say Latin players, it was only light-skinned Latinos who were allowed. They literally referred to some of them as “white Cubans”.

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by mjekase

It’s not as simple as that. When you say Latin players, it was only light-skinned Latinos who were allowed. They literally referred to some of them as “white Cubans”.

Again, this is venturing into colorism.

Using "White" to refer to simply lighter skin is an anachronism. Not even the Irish were considered "White" back in those days.

[TheFrenzy]

Anyone want to call Moses Yellow Horse of the Pittsburgh Pirates (1921) "white" or "light-skinned"?

[Goldie]

I think the right move would have been to make all pre-1947 records part of a separate set of unofficial records, and lump the Negro Leagues numbers in there. I think it's objectively impossible to compare the stats of the two leagues. It's better to honor the Negro Leagues by saying that no record before 1947 is representative of Major League baseball because so many players were barred from playing with each other or by the same rules/standards.

If Joe DiMaggio had to face Satchel Paige 5 times during his streak in 1941, I doubt he would have made it to 56. And on the same line, if Josh Gibson were in the majors, i can't imagine his numbers would have held up equally. But we'll never know for either, so don't make round pegs fit square holes.

None of these guys are alive to have their legacies altered by just throwing out anything pre 1947.

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by Goldie

I think the right move would have been to make all pre-1947 records part of a separate set of unofficial records, and lump the Negro Leagues numbers in there. I think it's objectively impossible to compare the stats of the two leagues. It's better to honor the Negro Leagues by saying that no record before 1947 is representative of Major League baseball because so many players were barred from playing with each other or by the same rules/standards.

[Sluggerrr]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Gibson was known as the “Black Babe Ruth” and in some ways, what he did relative to the other Negro Leaguers is on par with what Ruth did to the AL. For example, Gibson led the Negro Leagues in HRs 11 times and Ruth did it 12 times. I have Gibson top 5 all-time.

I heard Ruth hit the ball. I’d never heard that sound before, and I was outside the fence but it was the sound of the bat that I had never heard before in my life. And the next time I heard that sound, I’m in Washington, D.C., in the dressing room and I heard that sound of a bat hitting the ball — sounded just like when Ruth hit the ball. I rushed out, got on nothing but a jockstrap, I rushed out — we were playing the Homestead Grays and it was Josh Gibson hitting the ball. And so I heard this sound again.

- Buck O'Neil

Hopefully integrating the stats will make more people aware of these amazing players like I was blessed to thanks to Buck O'Neil. It doesn't change how anyone views the former greats but it may make some people more aware of some other great players.