PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[2010GBPackers]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

Oh, here we go again! Hey, Voice of Reason, you may want to check all of the other scammer threads where the accused or others who have hundreds of thousands in investments wrapped up in graded cards took the same path you just did. It started in Nov '18 with the Lebron /99 thread and hasn't stopped anything. Paraphrasing here:

"You're all just jealous of us rich people."

"You all represent a very small contingent of the collecting community."

"Why are you only looking at the same people?"

It's clear you are terrified of losing money on the PSA and SGC cards you have invested in; millions of dollars worth is my guess. Either that or you're Brent Huigens. Better sell now.

...or based on the timing of your post, Brian Drent.

[Zhamlau]

Originally Posted by VoiceofReason

It has been a most scintillating month of reading, following the multitude of threads being created, the discourse and dialogue between the self-professed good guys vs the accused evil-doers, and the numerous scratch your head moments executed by the frankly foolish accused parties, logging in to save their good names, only to be proven even more untrustworthy or at the very least, more suspicious. Sadly, the fact remains that regardless of how any of accused persons go about verifying, or better stated, attempting to verify their lack of involvement in anything heinous, they're still met with, "but it doesn't matter because", or "yes, but.....", or "give me access to everything you have or else"!

Or else what? You still wouldn't believe them.

Because this is a mission board.

Im not saying that is good or bad. But let us call a spade a spade.

Here is my commentary on all this:

3124508 - I'll call you Elliot. You like proton mail. Why anyone uses protonmail is beyond me - one can still copy and paste, screenshot, etc. Maybe you like Mr Robot, too. You seem to have a sense of amusement within you. You're very logical. You stick to facts, you don't acknowledge receipt of praise, or when people commend your work. Im not sure if that is genuine or mannered. But it's interesting nonetheless.

The problem with this is what your motivation is. People aren't intrinsically motivated. This is absolute fact. So if you have no seemingly personal reaction to your hours of work, what ingratiating rewards does your work provide? Are you working on a thesis in forensic accounting? Do you believe that your work is going to initiate some form of new, contemporary and modern grading mechanism? Do you believe that your contributions will lead to the demise of grading? To the latter I would ask, to what end? There's no benefit or reward, because something else will take its place. There is no motivation there.

It begs the question, too - why are you so fascinated with this one bunch of individuals, when truth be told, there are so many more? This leads me to believe that you don't actually have as much first hand knowledge about the industry as you are indirectly leading people to believe, and secondly that you may be receiving a good deal of your information from a small handful of other industry individuals who are in direct competition with the people you are essentially defaming. In fact, I can think of at least three players who you have conveniently excluded almost to the point of it being obvious.

I only say this because in the course of rabbit-hatting all these incredible points, which they truly are, there are so many things that you have failed to explain with respect to how grades are also achieved, how certain cards would have been targeted for monetary premiums, and who are the losers in all of this. These are the individuals you are missing out on. This buffer leads me to some afterthoughts.

Corndog - another great detective. But to what end? Yours is a more narcissistic pleasure. "He has no rival, he has no equal". Sure, its scripture, but no self respecting theologian would use that as a personal tag line. Narcissism is bad. You could have used a line that might have suggested enlightenment, but you didn't. A little bit like the warden in Shawshank - "I prefer, 'I am the light of the world'". What do you get out of all this? You don't get keys to the pearly gates over baseball cards, so I wonder what you see as the end here. If you are considering buying cards once you "destroy grading" because prices come back "down to reality", well, that's just hypocritical, isn't it? I mean, you are behaving in a way that you think you are bringing down and industry, which you aren't actually, to buy the stuff cheap? Thats market manipulation, too. The Risen wouldn't like that, I can assure you of that.

SuperDan49 - You're basically a less narcissistic version of these two characters.


Guys, you're typing tough guys. You're posting on a board that has less of a base of relevant individuals that any other board. Why?

You know why! Did you read that post asking what the most anyone has spent on a card? You're preaching to a congregation that spends $50-300 on cards. You had one guy who thinks he's Jason Momoa spending a little over a grand. And one guy who is the big shooter on the boards, spending 6 figures over 6 months.

This is why one questions your motivations as well as your tipsters - you're harboring the support of people who are obviously only jealous of the monetary issues here. Thats not heroism. Thats jealousy. I distinctly recall one post where someone stated that the amount of money one of the people you're defaming was making was "more than people make in a lifetime of working every day". What? are you ridiculous? What does a doctor make? What does a lawyer make? What does a departmental chair make? A decent 6 figure salary doesn't take that much to accomplish, unless you have limited education, limited qualifications, or you don't work full time.

My point to all of you is that while you sit with the assumption that your end-to-end encrypted emails from "anonymous" sources, you also confirm that you have very limited actual insider knowledge of what you are spreading. You therefore also aren't necessarily aware of misinformation you're being given, or the fact that certain connections you're drawing are based on information provided to you that only a small group of individuals would know, therefore triangulating who you're getting your "anonymous" tips from.

You also do realize that just because you sell cards, it doesn't mean you don't know how to circumvent a VPN, right?

You're all doing a great job, no question about it. That is meant entirely genuinely.

I just ask why the secrecy on your part?

Should we Satoshi you guys just to be fair? We are about a month out from the National. Should we start eliminating people you aren't and have a grand reveal just before the National so that the dogs of the hobby can face their accusers?

Let's vote and let's play fair!!

I don’t get this post. The information uncovered here has lead to articles in various news outlets including the NYT (even if it’s not what it used to be, it’s still a major name). Why call out the people finding the evidence when you agree the information they found is not only accurate but meaningful? Like why are you critiquing what email service or biblical quote someone might use in their signature?

It not only feels like trolling, it’s almost like you are trying to stir up some sort of drama to derail the thread.

[salthill]

Never mind them. It’s the very definition of an ad hominem attack. Or in sporting terms, when you’re not good enough to play the ball, take out the man instead.

[mrdallas]

Originally Posted by VoiceofReason

It has been a most scintillating month of reading,

I have no desire to re post this novel again, but to keep it short, that was an amazing 1st post....

Brent Huigens, Betsy Huigens, Gary Moser, Brian Deer, Robert Block, Joe Clemons etc, etc. No matter what you feel the intentions are of the people uncovering the dirt SuperD, Corn, COMC. Each day they are exposing these shady characters, and in some if not all cases criminals.

This is NOT jealousy. This is just a case of people who have a moral compass that clearly see these people for who they really are based on clear and concise evidence. Whether or not there are many more people in line with the aforementioned names, the evidence presented has these people dead to rights.

Also, each of the people above has had the opportunity to come on here and clear there name. Not one has managed to do that. I find that interesting.

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by VoiceofReason

Lots of big words

Deflect deflect deflect.

You can try to distract from the real issue, but there are HUNDREDS of posts from all 3 people that you mentioned that are nothing but facts. Here's when the card sold, here's what it looked like then, here's when it re-sold, here's what it looks like now, and here's who was involved. That it's the same people involved every time is what, a coincidence?

You seem to take issue with the fact that they are focused on a few people, but don't seem to have a problem with the fact that just focusing on those people has provided a never-ending list of defaced and ruined cards. It's been going for 3 months, and the supply doesn't seem to be running out anytime soon.

If you want to waste your time trying to figure out who they are and why they are doing this, then knock yourself out. It's just a lame attempt to shift focus from the actual problem.

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

...or based on the timing of your post, Brian Drent.

Never thought of this...

[Super8er]

All that high-minded psychology talk that sounded like it came from a high school textbook and then we get to this-

"But there are those of us who know people who work at Apple, and Google, and ISPs, and actually Interestingly enough, at least 3 VPN providers."

"I know people, too. Important people."

VoiceOfReason's posts are infinitely more enjoyable - and humorous - if you read them in Jigsaw's voice.

[ThoseBackPages]

more PBMs

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by Super8er

All that high-minded psychology talk that sounded like it came from a high school textbook and then we get to this-

"But there are those of us who know people who work at Apple, and Google, and ISPs, and actually Interestingly enough, at least 3 VPN providers."

"I know people, too. Important people."

VoiceOfReason's posts are infinitely more enjoyable - and humorous - if you read them in Jigsaw's voice.

Indeed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFzjixDLsy8

[Vintagecollect]

I was thinking more the voiceover from the end of the Breakfast Club

[palmetto7]

"no one does work for no return"? Well my mom is retired and is a member of the hoa, and volunteers at numerous charities.....unpaid.....like millions of others that enjoy doing the community valuable work and service. Just like boda is doing here....giving the sports card community a HUGE favor and exposing CRIMINALS.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Vintagecollect]

A task itself can be "rewarding", even if not monetary

[SirTommyWinAlot]

Originally Posted by VoiceofReason

I see there are already a few generic lines coming from fans. I should have prefaced this by saying my questions are pointed at the three individuals I asked the questions of, not the general audience. I will however take a moment to quickly point out error in the initial replies.

Sports card radio, I don't have to stop. I have just as much right to have an opposing opinion to your thoughts as you do to mine. In fact I don't have any opinion opposing yours since you haven't given an opinion. You just gave a colloquial backhand. I'll carry on therefore.

The other members calling the fact that money is not a motivator here - absolute, utter rubbish. If money had nothing to do with this, each card questioned wouldn't be headed in bold red with "profit of xxxxxx". This isn't a discourse on nobility and class, it's pure jealousy that motivated the initial "detective work". Too many comments trying to negate the value placed on high grade premiums, the profits made, etc.

If you work for the government you're just as much of a crook, but we aren't here to debate that becuase we only seem concerned with the 6 and 7 and 8 figure salaries of a few dozen people.

So to argue that monetary return isn't the issue here is nonsense.

And to suggest, even suggest, that these "detectives" would literally waste this much of their time for no return is preposterous. It is pure fact in psychology that no one is intrinsically motivated, not even your three year old. So, no one does this much work, and I use the term loosely, for no return.

There is always a reward.

Take a moment to read what I wrote carefully. I'm not silly and I'm very precise with the words I use. There are no generalizations where the questions I posed were concerned.

But again in all seriousness, would anyone here or any of the accused like to know the same info about the individuals doing the detective work? It would seem only fair, save for the fact that the information provided by these three individuals, and not myself at this point, is actually a breach of four forum rules?

You see, these guys, while Your heroes, are actually only playing the heroes becuase they think they are shrouded by a veil of anonymity. But there are those of us who know people who work at Apple, and Google, and ISPs, and actually Interestingly enough, at least 3 VPN providers.

Sometimes information just anonymously finds it way around.

These guys don't mean anything to me, but maybe they do to some people. I don't know.

You guys really don't want to play fair? I think it would be really fun. Isn't sport supposed to be fun? Peanuts, cracker jack, the old ballgame?

Where are the pump and dump guys in all this?

This is a forum for three preachers (one for sure) suffering from cognitive bias. That's not me being nasty, or obtuse, I'm saying my opinion just as you are, and for which I am allowed.

Big boys, do remember that this is an industry of misinformation, and misinformation is designed to weed out moles.

The amount does matter in all this. It shows the extent and magnitude of the fraud. Do you think $$$ matters in shoplifting? Heck yeah it does. Go over a certain amount and you're a felon.

Smart guy with stupid logic.

[SirTommyWinAlot]

Originally Posted by Vintagecollect

A task itself can be "rewarding", even if not monetary

For voice of reason it's all about cash.

He's a candidate for a bad karma strike.

[Super8er]

Originally Posted by Vintagecollect

A task itself can be "rewarding", even if not monetary

Yes, this.

I fly racing drones. It took me a lot of time, research and work to learn how to build, program and fly them. I've probably dropped at least $10K into it.

I get nothing monetary or physical in return. I get the joy of learning something new and the thrill of flying them.

[guru]

and "VoiceofReason" just got the hammer.

[mattglet]

Originally Posted by guru

and "VoiceofReason" just got the hammer.

While I agree with precisely zero of his rant, why did he get banned?

[guru]

Originally Posted by mattglet

While I agree with precisely zero of his rant, why did he get banned?

probably because the MODs could track his IP address down and they know who he/she is, and he is using a "new" account to carry his/her water for himself/herself. Only making them look worse than they already do in this.

[dustin42]

Originally Posted by guru

and "VoiceofReason" just got the hammer.

I have stayed off here just watching, but that gibberish they wrote got me laughing so hard. People in this hobby never cease to amaze with stupidity and sleaziness.

[metallicalex777]

The MASSIVE difference in this modern time's round of bringing alterations/scamming sales is the unbelievable and amazing level of DOCUMENTATION that can now be cross referenced by many "hats" within the hobby/trade.

The fact that buyers and sellers can now cross reference slabbed cert numbers in regards to all of this, regardless if the hundreds already documented and nearly proven are a small quantity of what is known to be out there, is beyond helpful.

Will this stop or prevent the majority of this? Not at all, but if you care about the dollars you spend you are dumb to not leverage this documentation for any sense of confidence you need to spend said dollars.

I work in problem management, and I chase multiple root causes for my company. Most times everyone wants a fix for the ultimate cause, which rarely happens. Where the biggest and quickest impact is, is with managing the aggregation of marginal gains. Finding the "quick wins" and fixing the 1% of all areas leads to a more knowledgeable experience along with a much better trust and health platform.

Not hobby related, but this is a GREAT story about the success of "fixing" the 1%...an article about Dave Brailsford becoming the performance director of the Great Britain Olympic Cycling team which ultimately took them to historic levels by "fixing" the 1% of things: https://jamesclear.com/marginal-gains

[mrdallas]

Originally Posted by guru

probably because the MODs could track his IP address down and they know who he/she is, and he is using a "new" account to carry his/her water for himself/herself. Only making them look worse than they already do in this.

Originally Posted by VoiceofReason

You see, these guys, while Your heroes, are actually only playing the heroes becuase they think they are shrouded by a veil of anonymity. But there are those of us who know people who work at Apple, and Google, and ISPs, and actually Interestingly enough, at least 3 VPN providers.

Sometimes information just anonymously finds it way around.

I am guessing you are right Which makes the statement above by this jack a$$ even more comical.

[chezball]

turdofreason must be a leon disciple.

[Cubsfanp]

I love how VoiceOfReason comes on with an ad hominem attack on certain members for hiding behind their anonymity, while doing the same him/herself.

[SetBuilder]

Those were the ramblings of a deranged individual. Like straight out of Silence of the Lambs.

[mrdallas]

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

I love how VoiceOfReason comes on with an ad hominem attack on certain members for hiding behind their anonymity, while doing the same him/herself.

Kind of wish the MOD's could give some insight onto who they were, but that would just open a can of worms. As much time that was put into that post though Moser/PWCC and one of their attorney's seems like a good guess..

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Those were the ramblings of a deranged individual. Like straight out of Silence of the Lambs.

This made me laugh. One of the greatest yet creepiest character ever.