BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Fudd

Fact is you are grouped in the Beckett industry summit with every other known scammers. It's a whose who of scammers summit. FACT

This is WAY too broad of a comment to make. There are plenty of reputable people at the industry summit.

[LEAF]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Brian, thanks for coming on. Of the name brand companies in this hobby, only you and PWCC are willing to do that, and that is appreciated.

I posted this earlier about the statistical impossibility of what is being done here. Please comment if you could:

I am not an expert on these cards, but Black labels didnt exist when 99% of cases were broken... they were merely quad ten's back then...

One could buy a "quad ten" and re-sub for black label and it would look the same... not saying he did that as I have no clue ..

BG

[gabballplayer14]

Originally Posted by calculusdork

Not a snowball's chance that the public will get that information.

Oh, I know

Just calling the bluff that is on the table.

[oddstuff]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

How many black labels have you gotten?


You realize Joe Clemons has received the HIGHEST % OF BLACKS ever put out by Beckett? Do you not understand the odds of going 3 for 3 blacks on a single order? How about 12 for 13?



This has nothing to do with jealousy or being a poor grader, but it has everything to do with dishonesty and fraud.

as an example, between Sept 2017 and Jan 2018, I accumulated 250 of Acuna 2017 Bowman Chrome Prospect cards. Of that lot, during prescreening, I whittled down the lot to 50 cards I thought may have a chance at 9.5s. Even after 17 years at looking at cards for grading, I honestly can not say for certain a card will pristine, so I can only hope out of those 50, I would get mostly of them as 9.5s, maybe a couple of gold 10s, let alone a black label. When the order came back, I did end up with four gold 10s and an unexpected black label. I myself having graded many cards with BGS/PSA, with my own experience of understanding the huge learning curve on what grades well (and what doesn't but took years to learn) after 17 years, have no issue with Joe getting a much much higher percentage of black labels. For him, it's probably a full time job, so he devotes all of his time looking at cards and sourcing modern cards that can grade very high. I do this as a part time thing with limited capital to supplement my day job so that my wife can stay home and care for our three kids, one of whom is autistic.

In response to the 3 of 3 for blacks in a single order, is it not possible that he had 10 of each of the cards in question, and out of that pile he picked out the 1 card he thought could pristine as only a pristine was worth the grading and that a 9.5 is not worth the grading cost? we are generally not talking about autos or serially numbered cards in this investigation right?

[Fudd]

Originally Posted by calculusdork

One time I submitted a 20 card order to BGS. I got 15 BGS 9.5s and 1 BGS 10. Great!

Every single one of the 9.5s had a 9 subgrade. Out of the 15, I received zero true gems. The 9 subgrade varied card to card, but there was always a 9.

That was my introduction to the subjectivity of grading. My grader was, for whatever reason, determined to keep me from having any true gems. I'll never know why.

cause your eyes aren't trained, don't cha know...

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by LEAF

Again, I can only speculate just like you guys....
I would just rather wait to lynch someone until the PROOF (not speculation) is there.. BG

The so-called proof you desire (i.e., oral or written confessions) won't be there, as you know unless: 1) Law enforcement gets involved; 2) Beckett submits to an independent audit of their grading department.

What has happened is statistically near impossible. Heck, the guy who broke the Ginter Code and user ID has the word "calculus" in it said "there's more chance of a destroyed sunken battleship reassembling itself at the bottom of the ocean than there is of this being coincidence."

That, sir, is proof that is beyond a reasonable doubt. This is the Jerome Jacobson scandal taking place in our hobby right in front of our eyes.

[kidfan9]

We need a GIF of DeNiro berating the hick from “Casino” about not be able to figure out that someone had hacked the slot machine to pay out multiple jackpots!

[Fudd]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

Crazy we now have another Clemons famous in baseball for cheating (I know the spelling is different)

He misremembered how he got the grades too

[luckyduck]

The math still makes no sense. Either he has an eye better than literally any other human being or he has an improper relationship with BGS. I'm going with option 2 there.

[cking]

Originally Posted by Bowman1951

Beckett needs to come clean, analyze exactly who graded every single Black Label WJCIII has ever received to see if there is some sort of correlation and then bring down the hammer on that person before it completely destroys their reputation as a whole.

.

Pretty sure we are way beyond a destroyed reputation at this point.

[pryantexas]

Tremendous work - I’ve had around 1000 cards graded by BGS now over the past 3 years - so I’m not a huge sample size nor a small one but I have never gotten a black label ... further more I’ve gotten fewer than fifteen 10s


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PoPCulture]

Originally Posted by discostu

The objective differences between a BGS 9.5 and a Black Label 10 has nothing to do with eyes or skill in detecting flaws.

Nothing.

It has to do with luck...or preferential (conscious or subconscious) treatment.

I agree completely. I’ve had exactly 16 cards come back BGS 10 Pristine but have never received a Black label. I accepted a long time ago that I would probably never see one but never would have thought it actually came down to who you know. Until now.

[thecardiq]

If you didn't know black labels, and 10's in general, were a joke/scam since forever, you have no one to blame but yourself. It has been forever that 10s were always, always three 10s and one 9.5, like clockwork, as if it made any sense. Then they introduce "black label" and suddenly a bunch have four 10s. BGS has been a #@#@#@#@ company since the early 2000s. In every way.

[Fudd]

Originally Posted by pejc300

That was the joke...you're going to be waiting a LONG time. He's probably on a plane to another country right now, meeting up with his friend Haiku.

He's on his way to the scam industry summit

[kyaa]

I've just been aware of another potential way this scam operates that I hadn't initially considered. This, courtesy of another Blowout user who wishes to remain anonymous.

"I had a bulk deal with BGS a few years ago. I got a preferred bulk pricing and deal because of some mutual friends with Jeromy Murray - director of BGS Grading. I do not remember the exact pricing, but the gist of it was like this:

I submit bulk cards (say 500 or more) with a minimum grade of 9.5. I pay $3 for every card that doesn't meet the minimum and I pay $10 for every card that does. I believe that I also could have set it with a minimum grade of 10 and the price would have been a bit higher. The end result was that BGS made more money if they gave me better grades. If I sent them a bunch of cards that should have received 9.0s - then they make a lot more money if they bump them up to 9.5s instead of rejecting them all.

This is done on a massive scale. Thousands of cards submitted each month by a lot of bulk graders.

When I compare my grading success rate in bulk orders compared to my previous regular "Grade All" orders - my rate of 9.5s and 10s was dramatically improved. Well beyond statistical possibility. I also was less picky about what I sent in for the bulk deals because I knew they would likely come back Gem or better.

I am quite sure that the issues you all are discussing come from a deal like this. I'm sure these guys have "Bulk Grading" deals with minimums of 9.5 or 10.0 where they pay more to get the good grades - and BGS makes more. Jeromy Murrays primary duty is to make BGS profitable and they make a lot more money by offering higher grades under these scenarios."

So, I guess we have two possibilities to explain Joe's illegitimate grades:
1) Inside help
2) He's essentially buying the grades. "Here's a Prizm Luka Doncic. I'll pay you $5 for looking at it. $100 if it grades a Black Label. What do you know? BLack Label worth $1200."

Curious what others think is more likely and if you view both as equally problematic?

[kyle121592]

Originally Posted by Fudd

LOL, that's funny. Boy does he have a trained eye.

Hey now he has 2 eyes! That’s gotta bring the odds down some!

[lisu]

Originally Posted by pryantexas

Tremendous work - I’ve had around 1000 cards graded by BGS now over the past 3 years - so I’m not a huge sample size nor a small one but I have never gotten a black label ... further more I’ve gotten fewer than fifteen 10s


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've only submitted like 500 cards in the last couple of years and gotten at least 5 black labels. I have a terrible eye though.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by LEAF

I am not an expert on these cards, but Black labels didnt exist when 99% of cases were broken... they were merely quad ten's back then...

One could buy a "quad ten" and re-sub for black label and it would look the same... not saying he did that as I have no clue ..

BG

Does that Quad 10 show up on the Pop Report in the Black column? I would think so because the grade would be the same, even if the label color isn't.

Joe is likely a nice guy, as everyone says. But you are risking your company's reputation (a company which I personally like!) to support out-and-out fraud.

[mlbfan10]

Originally Posted by kyaa

Here's a little fun with math.

Based on the pop report and including the "illegitimate" Black Labels, the odds of getting a 2018 Topps Chrome Update Black Label are approximately 3 percent or 1 in 33.

On 5/8/19, Clemons got 8 of these in a row. According to my math, the odds of that were 1 in 1,406,408,618,241--that's 1 in 1.4 Trillion.

Don't stop being awesome. This lays it out clearly.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[luckyduck]

Originally Posted by cking

Pretty sure we are way beyond a destroyed reputation at this point.

People saying that the grading companies need to clean house aren't being quite cynical enough. If giving away lots of nice grades to big customers gets lots of business, grading companies will give away lots of nice grades to their actually important customers.

[calculusdork]

Originally Posted by kyaa

I've just been aware of another potential way this scam operates that I hadn't initially considered. This, courtesy of another Blowout user who wishes to remain anonymous.

"I had a bulk deal with BGS a few years ago. I got a preferred bulk pricing and deal because of some mutual friends with Jeromy Murray - director of BGS Grading. I do not remember the exact pricing, but the gist of it was like this:

I submit bulk cards (say 500 or more) with a minimum grade of 9.5. I pay $3 for every card that doesn't meet the minimum and I pay $10 for every card that does. I believe that I also could have set it with a minimum grade of 10 and the price would have been a bit higher. The end result was that BGS made more money if they gave me better grades. If I sent them a bunch of cards that should have received 9.0s - then they make a lot more money if they bump them up to 9.5s instead of rejecting them all.

This is done on a massive scale. Thousands of cards submitted each month by a lot of bulk graders.

When I compare my grading success rate in bulk orders compared to my previous regular "Grade All" orders - my rate of 9.5s and 10s was dramatically improved. Well beyond statistical possibility. I also was less picky about what I sent in for the bulk deals because I knew they would likely come back Gem or better.

I am quite sure that the issues you all are discussing come from a deal like this. I'm sure these guys have "Bulk Grading" deals with minimums of 9.5 or 10.0 where they pay more to get the good grades - and BGS makes more. Jeromy Murrays primary duty is to make BGS profitable and they make a lot more money by offering higher grades under these scenarios."

So, I guess we have two possibilities to explain Joe's illegitimate grades:
1) Inside help
2) He's essentially buying the grades. "Here's a Prizm Luka Doncic. I'll pay you $5 for looking at it. $100 if it grades a Black Label. What do you know? BLack Label worth $1200."

Curious what others think is more likely and if you view both as equally problematic?

My goodness.

[pejc300]

Originally Posted by oddstuff

as an example, between Sept 2017 and Jan 2018, I accumulated 250 of Acuna 2017 Bowman Chrome Prospect cards. Of that lot, during prescreening, I whittled down the lot to 50 cards I thought may have a chance at 9.5s. Even after 17 years at looking at cards for grading, I honestly can not say for certain a card will pristine, so I can only hope out of those 50, I would get mostly of them as 9.5s, maybe a couple of gold 10s, let alone a black label. When the order came back, I did end up with four gold 10s and an unexpected black label. I myself having graded many cards with BGS/PSA, with my own experience of understanding the huge learning curve on what grades well (and what doesn't but took years to learn) after 17 years, have no issue with Joe getting a much much higher percentage of black labels. For him, it's probably a full time job, so he devotes all of his time looking at cards and sourcing modern cards that can grade very high. I do this as a part time thing with limited capital to supplement my day job so that my wife can stay home and care for our three kids, one of whom is autistic.

In response to the 3 of 3 for blacks in a single order, is it not possible that he had 10 of each of the cards in question, and out of that pile he picked out the 1 card he thought could pristine as only a pristine was worth the grading and that a 9.5 is not worth the grading cost? we are generally not talking about autos or serially numbered cards in this investigation right?

With all due respect, do you just realize what you wrote? I mean, think about what you just said.

You have been grading for 17 years. You are essentially an expert. You took a lot of 250 cards and meticulously inspected them to choose the absolute best and came away with 50 cards. Of those 50 you expected most to get 9.5 or better. You were ELATED to get 4 BGS 10 Pristine, and 1 elusive black label out of the 50, and I'm assuming the other 45 got 9.5. This is how it works for everyone who grades cards and knows what they are doing.

In your example, by percentage, Joe would have received 40 Black Labels and 10 Pristines.

Do you understand this? I genuinely wonder if people just can't bring themselves to see the truth. You LITERALLY just made the case against Joe in your own example.

22 BLACK LABELS IN A ROW DOES NOT HAPPEN.

SUBMISSIONS OF 3/3 BLACK LABELS OR 8/8 BLACK LABELS DOES NOT HAPPEN.

It only happens you used to work for BGS, you are close personal friend with all BGS employees including the people you drop your cards off with and senior graders, you live in Dallas, and you have an inside man.

Unreal.

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by kyaa

I've just been aware of another potential way this scam operates that I hadn't initially considered. This, courtesy of another Blowout user who wishes to remain anonymous.

"I had a bulk deal with BGS a few years ago. I got a preferred bulk pricing and deal because of some mutual friends with Jeromy Murray - director of BGS Grading. I do not remember the exact pricing, but the gist of it was like this:

I submit bulk cards (say 500 or more) with a minimum grade of 9.5. I pay $3 for every card that doesn't meet the minimum and I pay $10 for every card that does. I believe that I also could have set it with a minimum grade of 10 and the price would have been a bit higher. The end result was that BGS made more money if they gave me better grades. If I sent them a bunch of cards that should have received 9.0s - then they make a lot more money if they bump them up to 9.5s instead of rejecting them all.

This is done on a massive scale. Thousands of cards submitted each month by a lot of bulk graders.

When I compare my grading success rate in bulk orders compared to my previous regular "Grade All" orders - my rate of 9.5s and 10s was dramatically improved. Well beyond statistical possibility. I also was less picky about what I sent in for the bulk deals because I knew they would likely come back Gem or better.

I am quite sure that the issues you all are discussing come from a deal like this. I'm sure these guys have "Bulk Grading" deals with minimums of 9.5 or 10.0 where they pay more to get the good grades - and BGS makes more. Jeromy Murrays primary duty is to make BGS profitable and they make a lot more money by offering higher grades under these scenarios."

So, I guess we have two possibilities to explain Joe's illegitimate grades:
1) Inside help
2) He's essentially buying the grades. "Here's a Prizm Luka Doncic. I'll pay you $5 for looking at it. $100 if it grades a Black Label. What do you know? BLack Label worth $1200."

Curious what others think is more likely and if you view both as equally problematic?

I'm going to be careful when I say this, because obviously we have no proof that anything posted is true coming from an anonymous source.

However, more stories like this are going to come out, and it's going to become pretty obvious what the path to corruption is. I'm sure they'll continue to point to the 'process' and how it would be impossible to get 4-5 people involved, but just read the news and tell me if there aren't more complex scams running every day for less money.

[dream34]

Must have used a different "labeling" system for these






Before anyone asks, no I do not get preferential treatment also. I just dug through my files as these were one of a very few times I actually remember getting multiple black labels in an order.

[LEAF]

Originally Posted by gabballplayer14

BG, do you have friends in the right places that can release who graded his orders? That would be the smoking gun and provide the proof.

If you do care as much about the industry as you say you do, then this would be a major step in the right direction in holding whoever it is accountable.

I wish I yielded the power to make a company share information on its customers. Highly unlikely.

BG