PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[Astros19]

He wrote a whole lot of words, but all I read was blah, blah, blah.

[amk1616]

I too wish that I knew who everybody was/is. The difference being that I would send them some Paypal and a thank you. All of your hard detective work have entertained me since the start of this mess. You are doing amazing work and I hope that people learn from it. I wish it went back to being a hobby and not a business.

[signed79]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

...or based on the timing of your post, Brian Drent.

Sounds more like David Peck (Dpeck on CU and Net54) who admits to inflating prices by placing bids on auctions to keep his wrestling collecting "worth" a certain amount. He's been supportive of Brent on Net54 and says he will continue to do business with PWCC until Brent is locked up.

[salthill]

Originally Posted by metallicalex777

Not hobby related, but this is a GREAT story about the success of "fixing" the 1%...an article about Dave Brailsford becoming the performance director of the Great Britain Olympic Cycling team which ultimately took them to historic levels by "fixing" the 1% of things: https://jamesclear.com/marginal-gains

It’s a great general principle, but in this case one of Dave’s 1%s was having his riders abuse therapeutic use exceptions for medical drugs. Maybe he just went 1% too far...

[metallicalex777]

Originally Posted by salthill

It’s a great general principle, but in this case one of Dave’s 1%s was having his riders abuse therapeutic use exceptions for medical drugs. Maybe he just went 1% too far...

The post was to elevate the general principle, not to find a rare instance (although wrong) of each and every marginal gain.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by VoiceofReason

I see there are already a few generic lines coming from fans. I should have prefaced this by saying my questions are pointed at the three individuals I asked the questions of, not the general audience. I will however take a moment to quickly point out error in the initial replies.

Sports card radio, I don't have to stop. I have just as much right to have an opposing opinion to your thoughts as you do to mine. In fact I don't have any opinion opposing yours since you haven't given an opinion. You just gave a colloquial backhand. I'll carry on therefore.

The other members calling the fact that money is not a motivator here - absolute, utter rubbish. If money had nothing to do with this, each card questioned wouldn't be headed in bold red with "profit of xxxxxx". This isn't a discourse on nobility and class, it's pure jealousy that motivated the initial "detective work". Too many comments trying to negate the value placed on high grade premiums, the profits made, etc.

If you work for the government you're just as much of a crook, but we aren't here to debate that becuase we only seem concerned with the 6 and 7 and 8 figure salaries of a few dozen people.

So to argue that monetary return isn't the issue here is nonsense.

And to suggest, even suggest, that these "detectives" would literally waste this much of their time for no return is preposterous. It is pure fact in psychology that no one is intrinsically motivated, not even your three year old. So, no one does this much work, and I use the term loosely, for no return.

There is always a reward.

Take a moment to read what I wrote carefully. I'm not silly and I'm very precise with the words I use. There are no generalizations where the questions I posed were concerned.

But again in all seriousness, would anyone here or any of the accused like to know the same info about the individuals doing the detective work? It would seem only fair, save for the fact that the information provided by these three individuals, and not myself at this point, is actually a breach of four forum rules?

You see, these guys, while Your heroes, are actually only playing the heroes becuase they think they are shrouded by a veil of anonymity. But there are those of us who know people who work at Apple, and Google, and ISPs, and actually Interestingly enough, at least 3 VPN providers.

Sometimes information just anonymously finds it way around.

These guys don't mean anything to me, but maybe they do to some people. I don't know.

You guys really don't want to play fair? I think it would be really fun. Isn't sport supposed to be fun? Peanuts, cracker jack, the old ballgame?

Where are the pump and dump guys in all this?

This is a forum for three preachers (one for sure) suffering from cognitive bias. That's not me being nasty, or obtuse, I'm saying my opinion just as you are, and for which I am allowed.

Big boys, do remember that this is an industry of misinformation, and misinformation is designed to weed out moles.

Bye Felecia!

[Archangel1775]

This got weird, I wonder what motivates "The Voice".

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

This got weird, I wonder what motivates "The Voice".

Rare steaks and bottles of Chianti.

[Onepocketj]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Rare steaks and bottles of Chianti.

You forgot fava beans

[IronMan2632]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Rare steaks and bottles of Chianti.

Yum!

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

This got weird, I wonder what motivates "The Voice".

Just the ramblings of a mentally unstable guy who appears to have a financial interest in Brent staying in business.

[Bruins1993]

Thank you guys for all the great detective work and I hope it continues!

Showing before and after photos of cards altered is one of the few things I've seen that really hits home with collectors! Hearing is one thing, seeing is another!

The more examples of altered cards the better because it makes a bigger impact encouraging/forcing steps to be taken to reduce wrongful deception: whether that be law enforcement (being forced to intervene), spotlight put on TPG due diligence, news coverage, or simply educating buyers and others to research history/provenance.

As far as crooks go I believe the only thing that will change their behavior is 1) Money 2) Law enforcement. Calling attention to an altered card that has history exposed hits them where it hurts financially and rightfully so.

As far as the losers go related to undisclosed altered cards (especially with a TPG grade!) I feel it reaches every honest person participating in the hobby, and also extends to those no longer wishing to participate or join the hobby. The altered cards diminish the value of ALL other non-altered cards as long as they are bought, sold, and reported on population reports (especially thinly traded --- granted population reports are far from perfect and a thread on themself). I have a very bad feeling what we are seeing the last couple months is just the very tip of the iceberg on what has occurred over the last 20 years related to wrongful deception in the sports card hobby.

Cheers

[superdan49]

PSA Cert #:28843589

1910 E93 Standard Caramel Honus Wagner PSA 3.5 to PSA 4
Alteration types: Chemically whitened

Sold on 5/14/2016 as a PSA 3.5 by Heritage Auctions to an unknown buyer for $2,269.00
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 6/11/2018 as a PSA 4 for $3,450.00
Final price: $3,450.00
Value gain: $1,181.00!


This card was chemically whitened to lessen some staining on its back and I believe especially to minimize the appearance of the enamel chipping in the lower left corner on the front. Unfortunately the chemical bath seems to have also washed away some of the natural color, especially on the card back.

The blue box shows the area that is depicted in the detailed photo. Light green circles are stains and/or print marks common to the card in both photos, proving it is the same.

This card was sent via anonymous tip with the condition that I say thank you to Daniel Paul. I thought that request was reasonable.


PSA 3.5: https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...umbnail-071515
PSA 4: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1669519

[corndog]

PSA Cert #25790432

1953 Parkhurst Teeder Kennedy #7 - Population 1 of 3 - None Graded Higher

Value gain of $984.00

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from probstein123 as a PSA-7 on March 14, 2016 for $46.00. VCP link: http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...grd=7&grdr=PSA
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-9 for $1,030.00 on June 20, 2017. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1506269

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify trimming of both the left and right edges.

[corndog]

PSA Cert #41697369

1953 Parkhurst Tim Horton #13 - Population 1 of 3 - None Graded Higher

Value gain of $2,781.12

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC as a PSA-7.5 on October 31, 2017 for $468.88. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1567251
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-9 for $3,250.00 on November 19, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1859812

From the PSA-9 listing description: "They simply don't get any better than this. And told, this is an extremely desirable, investment caliber card which commands serious attention."

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify trimming of both the left and right edges.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by superdan49

PSA Cert #:28843589

1910 E93 Standard Caramel Honus Wagner PSA 3.5 to PSA 4
Alteration types: Chemically whitened

Sold on 5/14/2016 as a PSA 3.5 by Heritage Auctions to an unknown buyer for $2,269.00
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 6/11/2018 as a PSA 4 for $3,450.00
Final price: $3,450.00
Value gain: $1,181.00!


This card was chemically whitened to lessen some staining on its back and I believe especially to minimize the appearance of the enamel chipping in the lower left corner on the front. Unfortunately the chemical bath seems to have also washed away some of the natural color, especially on the card back.

The blue box shows the area that is depicted in the detailed photo. Light green circles are stains and/or print marks common to the card in both photos, proving it is the same.

This card was sent via anonymous tip with the condition that I say thank you to Daniel Paul. I thought that request was reasonable.

Daniel Paul is Daniel Desmond. It is a name many people in the hobby know. Daniel is known to work on cards. He has always been open about doing so. Looks like Brent must be using him to alter cards that he buys.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Daniel Paul is Daniel Desmond. It is a name many people in the hobby know. Daniel is known to work on cards. He has always been open about doing so. Looks like Brent must be using him to alter cards that he buys.

And the rabbit hole continues

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Daniel Paul is Daniel Desmond. It is a name many people in the hobby know. Daniel is known to work on cards. He has always been open about doing so. Looks like Brent must be using him to alter cards that he buys.

Dennis Purdy kinda saw all this coming.

[HBMC]

Originally Posted by Super8er

Yes, this.

I fly racing drones. It took me a lot of time, research and work to learn how to build, program and fly them. I've probably dropped at least $10K into it.

I get nothing monetary or physical in return. I get the joy of learning something new and the thrill of flying them.

That sounds pretty cool, congrats on a neat hobby!

Originally Posted by superdan49

PSA Cert #:28843589

1910 E93 Standard Caramel Honus Wagner PSA 3.5 to PSA 4
Alteration types: Chemically whitened

Sold on 5/14/2016 as a PSA 3.5 by Heritage Auctions to an unknown buyer for $2,269.00
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 6/11/2018 as a PSA 4 for $3,450.00
Final price: $3,450.00
Value gain: $1,181.00!


This card was chemically whitened to lessen some staining on its back and I believe especially to minimize the appearance of the enamel chipping in the lower left corner on the front. Unfortunately the chemical bath seems to have also washed away some of the natural color, especially on the card back.

The blue box shows the area that is depicted in the detailed photo. Light green circles are stains and/or print marks common to the card in both photos, proving it is the same.

This card was sent via anonymous tip with the condition that I say thank you to Daniel Paul. I thought that request was reasonable.


PSA 3.5: https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...umbnail-071515
PSA 4: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1669519

The close up of this card really makes me sad, it completely obliterated the differences in color made by the dot matrix printing underneath the red background. What a crying shame.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Dennis Purdy kinda saw all this coming.

Was that 1996?

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Was that 1996?

Yes indeed. Two stories, one on Daniel and one on PSA, in VCBC 7.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Daniel Paul is Daniel Desmond. It is a name many people in the hobby know. Daniel is known to work on cards. He has always been open about doing so. Looks like Brent must be using him to alter cards that he buys.

Yep. Leon called him out a year ago.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=253875

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Yes indeed. Two stories, one on Daniel and one on PSA, in VCBC 7.

I hope Daniel is flattered that his work garnered an eye appeal sticker. I was gonna say that is not easy to get but that is only if you are the average consignor of PWCCs.

[Morgoth]

I know for a fact that some PSA dealers are getting pissed about this story and wouldn't put it past some of them to start threatening people.

Veiled in VOR's posts was threats to expose people who are uncovering this issue as a means to stop them.

If you read some original posts on Net54 and PSA's boards, the anonymous nature of this board was brought up as a reason not to believe what was posted by some members.

If PSA prices go down, dealer inventory starts tanking, I can see people getting really mad and lashing out

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

I know for a fact that some PSA dealers are getting pissed about this story and wouldn't put it past some of them to start threatening people.

Veiled in VOR's posts was threats to expose people who are uncovering this issue as a means to stop them.

If you read some original posts on Net54 and PSA's boards, the anonymous nature of this board was brought up as a reason not to believe what was posted by some members.

If PSA prices go down, dealer inventory starts tanking, I can see people getting really mad and lashing out

I am a dealer. I am not pissed at what is being uncovered here. I also disagree that the anonymity somehow invalidates the overwhelming evidence presented.

So who are some of these dealers who are so pissed off about Brent's dirty little secrets being uncovered here? Maybe some of these guys are also part of the problem with the hobby.

If the market adjusts then so be it. It was built upon manufactured cards that otherwise would not have existed.