Did WhatNot Open a FAKE 1986-87 Fleer Basketball Box at The National?

[pip]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Have you done your research on Larry Fritsch? The man was loading up on cases of stuff in the early 70s. Their inventory is unknown and rather secretive. They are smart enough to limit purchases of their vintage unopened as well. Someone mentioned that in a news report they stated that was their only case. Cool story. Only case "for sale" maybe. Would you tell the general public that you have millions in your home?


Here is a link

https://fritschcards.com/about-us/

That's not what he's suggesting. Follow his link. It's a different item.

[RealDocStrange]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

I followed the auction and knew exactly where it came from after reading the description from Steve that it had iron clad provenance. If I remember correctly, the source wasn't given in the description. Only one source can provide that provenance. It also helped the Larry Fritsch address was on it. �� There hadn’t been a sealed case seen before or since this case. After my conversation with Gary V prior to the ending, I’m surprised it went so low unless he was the one that won it(Through BO).

Here’s an article with photos from before the BBCE wrap

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...llion-or-more/


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[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by pip

That's not what he's suggesting. Follow his link. It's a different item.

My bad, I see now, he was talking about an actual empty case and wrappers that was auctioned off. That's not good. That's why provenance is just as important as anything else.

[mcgee2134]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

My bad, I see now, he was talking about an actual empty case and wrappers that was auctioned off. That's not good. That's why provenance is just as important as anything else.

And it went for $10K!!!
Why would anyone pay that much unless they plan on ripping someone off.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by mcgee2134

And it went for $10K!!!
Why would anyone pay that much unless they plan on ripping someone off.

I'm sure a "Case Find" will appear out of nowhere that some old man (that got paid to do it) is selling. It'll come from some influencer too.

[FBCardFan]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Have you done your research on Larry Fritsch? The man was loading up on cases of stuff in the early 70s. Their inventory is unknown and rather secretive. They are smart enough to limit purchases of their vintage unopened as well. Someone mentioned that in a news report they stated that was their only case. Cool story. Only case "for sale" maybe. Would you tell the general public that you have millions in your home?


Here is a link

https://fritschcards.com/about-us/

I don't think you noticed that the link goes to an auction of different case that was empty that also came with 12 empty boxes and all or most of the empty wrappers.

[soey10]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

As an authenticator, why would you not raise an eyebrow or question something's authenticity? That's a huuuuuge red flag.

Shouldn't you be questioning the authenticity of items all the time? Isn't that your job? Do they approach items as "not authentic until proven otherwise" or "authentic unless proven otherwise"?

Again, it's Steve's/BBCE's attitude and arrogance that get in the way of being professional.

When stuff is brought into question, shouldn't your approach be "you know what? Let's take a closer look at this. Maybe we missed something. We're going to keep an open mind and re-examine this."

We've talked about giving the dude a second chance. But the attitude he gives off says he doesn't think he needs a second chance, nor does he want one.

Your take on this is correct, if it is your business to be an expert and an investigator for the truth then you should investigate not rely on your expertise that contradicts itself in this case.

The problem is that he thinks by admitting he made a mistake and the box was a resealed box would jeopardize his name and company which in turn would reduce revenue.

I would argue it would do the opposite, by being truthful and admitting you made a mistake would make you a human being and then gives you more knowledge of how this person passed this box off. He should always be searching for the truth and not rubber stamping boxes that come through his shop.

I have had no problems with Steve personally. He has authenticated several boxes I sent him and he has also sent back resealed packs that I bought from a local card shop (which I was able to get my money back after showing the shop owner Steve Hart’s email)


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[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by NoleinJax

Which one is which again?

[oldgoldy97]

I didn’t realize how scummy this industry was. There has be a litany of threads recently that goes to prove that, from the card companies to distributors to LCS (for a lack of a better word) to grading to authenticating to eBay to resellers to non-paying collectors.

Just filth.

[pip]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

I didn’t realize how scummy this industry was. There has be a litany of threads recently that goes to prove that, from the card companies to distributors to LCS (for a lack of a better word) to grading to authenticating to eBay to resellers to non-paying collectors.

Just filth.

Pretty much.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by pip

That's not what he's suggesting. Follow his link. It's a different item.

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

My bad, I see now, he was talking about an actual empty case and wrappers that was auctioned off. That's not good. That's why provenance is just as important as anything else.

Originally Posted by FBCardFan

I don't think you noticed that the link goes to an auction of different case that was empty that also came with 12 empty boxes and all or most of the empty wrappers.

Yeah, pip caught that and made me aware. That's pretty expensive and the hope is some collector is going to display those in a museum, the likelihood is that those get made into packs/boxes.

[mrb842]

so far nothing from goldin which really proves what a bad group they are. I guess they're hoping their friends like Rovell will bury the story.

[NoleinJax]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Have you done your research on Larry Fritsch? The man was loading up on cases of stuff in the early 70s. Their inventory is unknown and rather secretive. They are smart enough to limit purchases of their vintage unopened as well. Someone mentioned that in a news report they stated that was their only case. Cool story. Only case "for sale" maybe. Would you tell the general public that you have millions in your home?


Here is a link

https://fritschcards.com/about-us/

You keep saying their inventory is unknown and rather secretive. They have a 92 page catalog so it's not that secretive although I'm sure not everything is listed in the catalog. They also sell BBCE wrapped boxes.

https://store-mqv5c81sb6.mybigcommer...Catalog121.pdf

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by NoleinJax

You keep saying their inventory is unknown and rather secretive. They have a 92 page catalog so it's not that secretive although I'm sure not everything is listed in the catalog. They also sell BBCE wrapped boxes.

https://store-mqv5c81sb6.mybigcommer...Catalog121.pdf

Clearly, you've never purchased from Larry Fritsch.......no need to bring this up in this thread though, go ahead and make a post if you'd like on this forum but your best bet is to make it on Net54 or the PSA forums if you'd like to learn more about vintage/older material and the Larry Fritsch company.

But yeah, thank you Mr. Obvious. I'm glad you learned that they had a website and catalog.

[NoleinJax]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Clearly, you've never purchased from Larry Fritsch.......no need to bring this up in this thread though, go ahead and make a post if you'd like on this forum but your best bet is to make it on Net54 or the PSA forums if you'd like to learn more about vintage/older material and the Larry Fritsch company.

It appears he passed long before I got back in the hobby so no I never purchased from Larry. I just said the company's inventory doesn't appear to be a national security secret and that they advertise the selling of BBCE boxes. Sorry if you took offense to that. lol.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by mrb842

so far nothing from goldin which really proves what a bad group they are. I guess they're hoping their friends like Rovell will bury the story.

Theyre owned by the same group that owns PSA. They cant criticize BBCE. Maybe you expect them to offer their reasons for not including the BBCE letter in the auction? Good luck with that.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by mrb842

so far nothing from goldin which really proves what a bad group they are. I guess they're hoping their friends like Rovell will bury the story.

Didn't think we would hear from Goldin, as it's pretty clear why the consignor, Goldin or both choose not to include the letter on this box. Unlike highlighting the known issues, sellers rarely miss bringing attention to descriptors they hope will add additional value (4th Jordan sticker, Jordan showing on top of a pack,...).

Should have already been standard procedure but seeing the confusion with BBCE's verbiage (36 pack boxes labeled the same, with and without the proper pack and sticker collation), it would make sense for future auctions to require the full letter of authenticity be presented.
BBCE, like they do with extra Jordan stickers, should also be noting any missing Jordans on the main BBCE authentication label.

[GOATcards]

PSA has this public guarantee of grade and authenticity, and that seems to make a big difference to its continued usage and recognition in the hobby, and a way of preventing scammers, scum and thieves (et al) from wreaking havoc on the hobby. (So does the guarantee apply to the Mastro-cut PSA Wagner in some way?) As I understand it, the cost of honoring this guarantee is built into its grading-pricing structure. Anyway, isn't having an honor-able guarantee the only industry-leading way to assure one's stature in the hobby as an authenticator (in which case, if you're really "doing favors for friends" it might still cost you)?

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by NoleinJax

It appears he passed long before I got back in the hobby so no I never purchased from Larry. I just said the company's inventory doesn't appear to be a national security secret and that they advertise the selling of BBCE boxes. Sorry if you took offense to that. lol.

You're a strange cat. When I speak about buying from Larry Fritsch, I don't mean directly from the man. Come on man, let's be respectful to a hobby pioneer.

When I state that they keep their inventory "secret", I'm not talking about what they have advertised on their website and in their catalog but thank you Mr. Obvious.

Don't take everything so literal. Like I said, if you want to know more about Larry Fritsch LLC, post a thread in one of the sites I mentioned. The knowledge is free. But if you want to continue to be an ass with the whole "Oh, yeah, look what I found, haha, you're wrong", I dont think anyone is amused and frankly, that anyone gives a sh*t. I really don't. Knowledge is power!

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

PSA has this public guarantee of grade and authenticity, and that seems to make a big difference to its continued usage and recognition in the hobby, and a way of preventing scammers, scum and thieves (et al) from wreaking havoc on the hobby. (So does the guarantee apply to the Mastro-cut PSA Wagner in some way?) As I understand it, the cost of honoring this guarantee is built into its grading-pricing structure. Anyway, isn't having an honor-able guarantee the only industry-leading way to assure one's stature in the hobby as an authenticator (in which case, if you're really "doing favors for friends" it might still cost you)?

That's a really, really tough situation. You can already see that people blame BBCE 100%. So what you will end up with are hateful scammers where their only goal is to scam BBCE. Nobody would be held accountable except BBCE if they get something through. Then again, maybe that Pokemon case wouldn't have been authenticated as that is something that could bankrupt a company.

[Adubbs111]

I’m kinda grunching so sorry if this had been covered, but reading the past few posts it seems like the consensus is that the box was a fraud, is that a fair assessment?

It definitely seemed that way to me, like 100% at first, but a couple of things seem strange to me. One is that if you’re going to go through the trouble of faking a box, why would you do something like put the cards in alphabetical order? Not only does that seem like a lot of work, it would seem like an obvious way to raise red flags. I’m takin it for granted that someone knowledgeable enough to recognize the value of the cards would also know not to do that.

The second thing is why would you include Jordans that would grade a 7? Why not include really crappy ones, or maybe only two of them?

I think it’s dangerous for BBCE to have so much power, and I’m not trying to defend them or anything—just curious about those two aspects of this situation. Thnx

[rifleman69]

Originally Posted by Adubbs111

I’m kinda grunching so sorry if this had been covered, but reading the past few posts it seems like the consensus is that the box was a fraud, is that a fair assessment?

It definitely seemed that way to me, like 100% at first, but a couple of things seem strange to me. One is that if you’re going to go through the trouble of faking a box, why would you do something like put the cards in alphabetical order? Not only does that seem like a lot of work, it would seem like an obvious way to raise red flags. I’m takin it for granted that someone knowledgeable enough to recognize the value of the cards would also know not to do that.

The second thing is why would you include Jordans that would grade a 7? Why not include really crappy ones, or maybe only two of them?

I think it’s dangerous for BBCE to have so much power, and I’m not trying to defend them or anything—just curious about those two aspects of this situation. Thnx

Because you sold those Jordan 7's at a premium..and probably have 8, 9, or 10's already in your portfolio.

[Adubbs111]

Originally Posted by rifleman69

Because you sold those Jordan 7's at a premium..and probably have 8, 9, or 10's already in your portfolio.

Fair enough. It also might be even more suspect if the cards look way different than the other cards, so putting in a Jordan PSA 1 or 2 would be super weird unless the other cards were screwed up (somehow, in fresh packs).

How about the other issue, the alphabetical order thing? Why do that?

[FBCardFan]

Originally Posted by Adubbs111

Fair enough. It also might be even more suspect if the cards look way different than the other cards, so putting in a Jordan PSA 1 or 2 would be super weird unless the other cards were screwed up (somehow, in fresh packs).

How about the other issue, the alphabetical order thing? Why do that?

Consider that the cards normal sequencing is alphabetical just with a 66 card difference between them.after the first few packs they may have gotten lazy thinking that the box has plausible deniability since it had 3 Jordan's and 2 stickers until BBCE took out a pack with one of the stickers.

[mizzoujohn]

Originally Posted by gomiamigo

This ftmfw.

Just buy PSA sealed packs i guess?

Well PSA sends their pack submissions to BBCE to authenticate so… same boat…