PITCHERS: Official Thread of the Hobby’s Outcast Position

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by Rbradleigh

Dammit, can’t they let a fan be a fan? Nope to the showers

It was the right call.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

At a minimum you would agree those 70 career innings are the best first 70 career innings in mlb history

As soon as you agree that you're doing the same thing people were doing in the EDLC thread.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by whitmm

As soon as you agree that you're doing the same thing people were doing in the EDLC thread.

They are not comparable. It would be similar if Elly came out and hit .360 with 40 bombs an people gave him the same treatment, but not when one guy hits .230 and the other guy has the best start to his career in mlb history (following one of the greatest colllege seasons in NCAA history)

Like its ok, to say yea Skenes actually is better then everyone, based upong the evidence that he actually is better then everyone

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

At a minimum you would agree those 70 career innings are the best first 70 career innings in mlb history

Two to three years older than Dwight Gooden to start his career. We have seen this plenty of times before.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

You can’t compare the 2 despite continuing to do so. One guy us doing things nobody in baseball has ever done (stuff more valuable then SB) and is also the best player in baseball by basically every metric while also having the best raw stiff of every player in baseball.

As amazing as lincecum verlander etc were for parts of career or entirety of career neither ever had the raw stuff that Skenes has. So it’s his combo of results and stuff that allows the conversation to take place

Nah, best of all time takes more than 70 innings.

It's the exact same thing. You are talking about potential. Elly has done stuff that nobody in baseball has ever done too.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Nah, best of all time takes more than 70 innings.

It's the exact same thing. You are talking about potential. Elly has done stuff that nobody in baseball has ever done too.

Strikeouts have a greater impact for pitchers then as hitters.

Skenes has what 50 career innings in pro ball before his debut an posteed 3 WAR in 11 starts? tracking fro 9-10 WAR for a full season first year in bigs and you want to compare that to a guy that posted a sub 1 WAR first 100 games. Hell Skenes has almost caught Elly this year as well

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Nah, best of all time takes more than 70 innings.

It's the exact same thing. You are talking about potential. Elly has done stuff that nobody in baseball has ever done too.

I'm just saying that GOAT will require (1) raw skill/stuff that few people have...skenes obv does and (2) results that few people will ever put up. All I'm saying is there is a non 0% chance he will be in that discussion someday.

That being said the general sentiment around Skenes pre call up was just hilariously off. I was quite confident he would be a top 10 SP (possibly top 1 SP) this year and was pretty much laughed at mocked by most everyone (in other threads more so then here).

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Strikeouts have a greater impact for pitchers then as hitters.

Skenes has what 50 career innings in pro ball before his debut an posteed 3 WAR in 11 starts? tracking fro 9-10 WAR for a full season first year in bigs and you want to compare that to a guy that posted a sub 1 WAR first 100 games. Hell Skenes has almost caught Elly this year as well

You are doing the exact same thing. I'm really not sure how you don't see it. You aren't talking about the things he's done. You are sitting here declaring that Paul Skenes is no worse than the second greatest pitcher in the history of baseball. Hell, even EDLC crowd didn't go that far.

It has nothing to do with the specific player, you DA. It's about how you talk about him.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by whitmm

You are doing the exact same thing. I'm really not sure how you don't see it. You aren't talking about the things he's done. You are sitting here declaring that Paul Skenes is no worse than the second greatest pitcher in the history of baseball. Hell, even EDLC crowd didn't go that far.

It has nothing to do with the specific player, you DA. It's about how you talk about him.

I said there's more of a chance hes the GOAT (non 0%) the there is that an active pitcher is currently better the him (0%)

If you want to talk about what hes done. (1) only pitcher in baseball hisotry with sub 2 era and 90 Ks through 70 innings (2) no hitters in > 15% of his starts

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

I said there's more of a chance hes the GOAT (non 0%) the there is that an active pitcher is currently better the him (0%)

If you want to talk about what hes done. (1) only pitcher in baseball hisotry with sub 2 era and 90 Ks through 70 innings (2) no hitters in > 15% of his starts

Yeah, you backtracked and changed to active pitcher.

Holy hell, look at you throw out ELDC type stats. It's truly amazing how you think you aren't doing the same thing they did in that thread.

And they aren't no-hitters. You will never find either of those starts on a list of no-hitters.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

I said there's more of a chance hes the GOAT (non 0%) the there is that an active pitcher is currently better the him (0%)

If you want to talk about what hes done. (1) only pitcher in baseball hisotry with sub 2 era and 90 Ks through 70 innings (2) no hitters in > 15% of his starts

Who was the most dominant pitcher to start out their career? Not Skenes, it was Fernando Valenzuela.

1980 he started as a reliever and pitched 17.2 innings with a zero ERA.

1981 his first 8 starts were all wins and complete games. 72 Innings pitched with a 0.50 ERA and an 8-0 record in 8 games.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Every great arm is the greatest ever to Mr. Locke. Last week, it was Miller. This week, it's Skenes. Next week, a new prospect will sit 102 and be the best ever. That's just how he rolls. It's all hyperbole (and an over reliance on "stuff" sprinkled in). It's his way of saying he likes them. Let him go.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

Who was the most dominant pitcher to start out their career? Not Skenes, it was Fernando Valenzuela.

1980 he started as a reliever and pitched 17.2 innings with a zero ERA.

1981 his first 8 starts were all wins and complete games. 72 Innings pitched with a 0.50 ERA and an 8-0 record in 8 games.

Damn, didn't realize they were all complete games.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Every great arm is the greatest ever to Mr. Locke. Last week, it was Miller. This week, it's Skenes. Next week, a new prospect will sit 102 and be the best ever. That's just how he rolls. It's all hyperbole (and an over reliance on "stuff" sprinkled in). It's his way of saying he likes them. Let him go.

Just the evolution of baseball. I’m sure I’ll be saying same thing about burns in a few weeks. Also above just happens to be true

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

Who was the most dominant pitcher to start out their career? Not Skenes, it was Fernando Valenzuela.

1980 he started as a reliever and pitched 17.2 innings with a zero ERA.

1981 his first 8 starts were all wins and complete games. 72 Innings pitched with a 0.50 ERA and an 8-0 record in 8 games.

Let’s be honest. Let Skenes face 1980/ hitters he goes 20
Innings. O/U hits Maybee 1.5 Ks Maybee 55?

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

It’s more likely that Skenes is the second best pitcher baseball has ever seen then it is anyone currently starting in majors is better

Originally Posted by whitmm

Yeah, you backtracked and changed to active pitcher.
.

No I very clearly said the above

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Let’s be honest. Let Skenes face 1980/ hitters he goes 20
Innings. O/U hits Maybee 1.5 Ks Maybee 55?

So put Valenzuela in today's world, and you end up with the same thing. Or give him all of the tools of today back in 1980 and think about what his numbers would have been. And he was three years younger than Skenes is now. Funny how that works, isn't it?

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

No I very clearly said the above

Right, that's what you changed to after you originally said this.

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

So we can finally all agree now that Skenes is the best pitcher in baseball already right?

And it’s probably Skenes….giant gap….conversation for second

You backtracked and changed it to "second best ever" and "currently starting"

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Just the evolution of baseball. I’m sure I’ll be saying same thing about burns in a few weeks. Also above just happens to be true

None of it was true. Was skenes any worse a few weeks ago when miller was the best? Or pre-season when you were calling him the best?

Face it, you get infatuated with the next big arm.

And that's not how evolution works. Players aren't evolving the game every few weeks.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

None of it was true. Was skenes any worse a few weeks ago when miller was the best? Or pre-season when you were calling him the best?

Face it, you get infatuated with the next big arm.

And that's not how evolution works. Players aren't evolving the game every few weeks.

I still have Miller as the second best starting pitcher in baseball fwiw. The only thing holding him back is not being allowed to start.

And while I agree that I love big arms, I think a better way to loo at it is I better understand the correlation between big arms and greatness. Same reason I love Hunter green and expect him to be awesome.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by whitmm

So put Valenzuela in today's world, and you end up with the same thing. Or give him all of the tools of today back in 1980 and think about what his numbers would have been. And he was three years younger than Skenes is now. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Realistically he would likely get lit up and never reach the majors.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

I still have Miller as the second best starting pitcher in baseball fwiw. The only thing holding him back is not being allowed to start.

And while I agree that I love big arms, I think a better way to loo at it is I better understand the correlation between big arms and greatness. Same reason I love Hunter green and expect him to be awesome.

So is Miller better than Skenes?

Because we know you think deGrom is the best pitcher in the history of baseball. And he is in baseball right now. Being on the IL doesn't matter, he's on roster, he's in baseball.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Realistically he would likely get lit up and never reach the majors.

You don't get it. You have your blinders on and aren't interested in actually talking about it.

You can try and deny it all you want, but Skenes is the pitcher he is because of today's technology, today's science, today's nutrition, today's strength programs. You have no clue what he would be if he was a pitcher coming up in the 80's. But you want to put Skenes of today into that era and you want to put Fernando of the 80's into today's game.

There's nothing realistic with anything you say. But I play your game, Skenes never would have become a pitcher in the 80's.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by whitmm

So is Miller better than Skenes?

Because we know you think deGrom is the best pitcher in the history of baseball. And he is in baseball right now. Being on the IL doesn't matter, he's on roster, he's in baseball.

Here is my current rankings for best pitchers in baseball

1. Degrom- still piling on rangers WS future
2. Skenes1 hope he can pitch in playoffs. Pirate WS = 6 figure score
3. Miller-
4. Skubal
5. Crochet l/Greene
6. Burns (not Burnes)
7. Ragans

Miller may have better stuff then Skenes fwiw but Skenes gets edge for being allowed to start + for mustache:

[pskell02]

Originally Posted by whitmm

You don't get it. You have your blinders on and aren't interested in actually talking about it.

You can try and deny it all you want, but Skenes is the pitcher he is because of today's technology, today's science, today's nutrition, today's strength programs. You have no clue what he would be if he was a pitcher coming up in the 80's. But you want to put Skenes of today into that era and you want to put Fernando of the 80's into today's game.

There's nothing realistic with anything you say. But I play your game, Skenes never would have become a pitcher in the 80's.

I’m not getting involved in all this childish back and forth, but do you people realize Skenes has been a pitcher for like 30 minutes? He was a catcher basically until his 2nd year of college when someone realized he has a hose and can dominate on the mound. He’s got the same experience staring as your average 13 year old.