Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

[wcardguy]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993 View Post

PSA submission records (submitter name / date) made public would completely change the hobby as we know it in my opinion.

I would pay money to see the percentage of 10s given to cards submitted by the big dealers versus those by us peons.

[HarryLime]

While I think there's a certain degree of merit to the "who is submitting them?" theory, I would disagree with the numbers being thrown around about 4SC.

Greg, we have our differences on things but I think we're pretty much lined up when it comes to who the bad actors that are operating in the hobby right now. I'm not sure how much actual experience you have with 4SC product but their demographic -- cheap cards from the '80s & '90s -- is basically my wheelhouse. Those are the cards I collected as a kid and they're the ones I like to collect now in PSA 10.

I have a few different ways of acquiring these cards. I rip wax and factory sets and self-submit cards to PSA. As you can imagine, I've gotten pretty good at what will get a 10 and what will end up with a 9. This is important to get right when you're talking about cards that literally have no secondary market value as a 9. I'll also buy already graded 10s when the price is right, which usually leads me to 4SC.

Now, admittedly, I wait for 4SC inventory to cycle through until I can find an example that is nearly perfectly centered. This usually only takes one or two sales. From there I always examine the card when I get it, just like I would examine any graded card I buy when I receive it. The slab is nice but I need to be sold on the card at the end of the day.

I can't think of a single purchase in this demographic (1980s-1990s PSA 10s) where I ever looked at a card and thought it didn't warrant the grade. I've never gotten a card that I wouldn't submit myself on my own dollar with the expectation that it would get a 10.

Obviously, I don't have any experience with lower grade older cards (although I have bought some PSA 8 vintage basketball that I was happy with) or super high-dollar condition-rarities. But a $150 Bonds rookie or a $20 '88 Topps error? That's my jam. A Jeter rookie? I'm in. And I think that's where they do a bulk of their inventory.

Like I said, I'm not sure how much actual experience you have but just throwing out statements like "lucky to get 1-in-5" just seems like wild and irresponsible speculation. But worse, it makes it seem like 4SC is on the same level as the dirty scumbag sellers we've seen BODA out over the last year and I think that's unfair.

I think 4SC gets what they get through extreme high-volume numbers. Think of it this way, if they crack an '89 Topps factory set, they're basically looking for around 60-70 cards -- every single HOFer (even the ones people forget like Don Sutton and Phil Niekro), as well as every single card that could possibly qualify for a PSA player set registry (Record Breakers, All-Stars, Team Cards, League Leaders, etc.). And they just have people ripping sets and wax all day building up a raw "potential" inventory.

They don't submit every 10-worthy card they have right away, they don't want to annihilate the pop report. So they sub some and sell those off, then sub some more, always trying to balance out the inventory and demand. They also have a few eBay accounts that sell off the raw overflow (NESC for example). They'll blow out the almosts but once they saturate the 10 market and it no longer becomes worth it to them to sub for more 10s, they'll also sell off their raw 10 inventory.

Ask yourself, how hard do you think it is to find a 10-worthy '89 Topps Canseco? They don't need nefarious backdoor dealings when they've got 1,000 examples to choose from. I'm just an actual customer who actually submits the same stuff I buy from them and I've never had a complaint.

Take that for what its worth.

Arthur

[pip]

Arthur,

You seem heavily invested and worried.

[dustin42]

I actually agree with Arthur on them. It is easy to find the cards 4SC grades. There are millions of unopened boxes and sealed sets of 80-90s stuff they submit. I get people bringing them into my shop all the time. Trimming those cards is not worth the risk I would think. If you know what you are doing you can get a ton of 10s being honest and just going through a bunch of inventory. I could be wrong but I just don't see it being worth it in the niche market they dominate.

[whoshotjr]

Originally Posted by dustin42

I actually agree with Arthur on them. It is easy to find the cards 4SC grades. Their are millions of unopened boxes and sealed sets of 80-90s stuff they submit. I get people bringing them into my shop all the time. Trimming those cards is not worth the risk I would think. If you know what you are doing you can get a ton of 10s being honest and just going through a bunch of inventory. I could be wrong but I just don't see it being worth it in the niche market they dominate.

Doesn't 4sc go through a ton of cards? I thought I read that newenglandsportscards on ebay sells card lots of all the 4sc stuff that doesn't grade. Not sure if that was speculation, or proven fact.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

[dustin42]

Originally Posted by whoshotjr

Doesn't 4sc go through a ton of cards? I thought I read that newenglandsportscards on ebay sells card lots of all the 4sc stuff that doesn't grade. Not sure if that was speculation, or proven fact.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

They would have to but I have no idea how their operation works. Just making educated guesses from my experience on how they would have to do it.

[mhcook]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

While I think there's a certain degree of merit to the "who is submitting them?" theory, I would disagree with the numbers being thrown around about 4SC.

Greg, we have our differences on things but I think we're pretty much lined up when it comes to who the bad actors that are operating in the hobby right now. I'm not sure how much actual experience you have with 4SC product but their demographic -- cheap cards from the '80s & '90s -- is basically my wheelhouse. Those are the cards I collected as a kid and they're the ones I like to collect now in PSA 10.

I have a few different ways of acquiring these cards. I rip wax and factory sets and self-submit cards to PSA. As you can imagine, I've gotten pretty good at what will get a 10 and what will end up with a 9. This is important to get right when you're talking about cards that literally have no secondary market value as a 9. I'll also buy already graded 10s when the price is right, which usually leads me to 4SC.

Now, admittedly, I wait for 4SC inventory to cycle through until I can find an example that is nearly perfectly centered. This usually only takes one or two sales. From there I always examine the card when I get it, just like I would examine any graded card I buy when I receive it. The slab is nice but I need to be sold on the card at the end of the day.

I can't think of a single purchase in this demographic (1980s-1990s PSA 10s) where I ever looked at a card and thought it didn't warrant the grade. I've never gotten a card that I wouldn't submit myself on my own dollar with the expectation that it would get a 10.

Obviously, I don't have any experience with lower grade older cards (although I have bought some PSA 8 vintage basketball that I was happy with) or super high-dollar condition-rarities. But a $150 Bonds rookie or a $20 '88 Topps error? That's my jam. A Jeter rookie? I'm in. And I think that's where they do a bulk of their inventory.

Like I said, I'm not sure how much actual experience you have but just throwing out statements like "lucky to get 1-in-5" just seems like wild and irresponsible speculation. But worse, it makes it seem like 4SC is on the same level as the dirty scumbag sellers we've seen BODA out over the last year and I think that's unfair.

I think 4SC gets what they get through extreme high-volume numbers. Think of it this way, if they crack an '89 Topps factory set, they're basically looking for around 60-70 cards -- every single HOFer (even the ones people forget like Don Sutton and Phil Niekro), as well as every single card that could possibly qualify for a PSA player set registry (Record Breakers, All-Stars, Team Cards, League Leaders, etc.). And they just have people ripping sets and wax all day building up a raw "potential" inventory.

They don't submit every 10-worthy card they have right away, they don't want to annihilate the pop report. So they sub some and sell those off, then sub some more, always trying to balance out the inventory and demand. They also have a few eBay accounts that sell off the raw overflow (NESC for example). They'll blow out the almosts but once they saturate the 10 market and it no longer becomes worth it to them to sub for more 10s, they'll also sell off their raw 10 inventory.

Ask yourself, how hard do you think it is to find a 10-worthy '89 Topps Canseco? They don't need nefarious backdoor dealings when they've got 1,000 examples to choose from. I'm just an actual customer who actually submits the same stuff I buy from them and I've never had a complaint.

Take that for what its worth.

Arthur

I have very limited experience with 4SC, but in my limited experience they seem to receive preferential treatment in grades. I bought about 10 rookie year Shaq cards to cross to BGS and only one or two crossed at 9.5. The edges and/or corners were the reason the others would not cross. In my experience PSA has no leniency on corners, so that issue surprised me.

I don't recall 4SC being accused of trimming and none of my rejections related to trimming.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by pip

Arthur,

You seem heavily invested and worried.

Ha! Yeah, my Mark Grace rookies need to pay for my next Lambo.

Arthur

[dustin42]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Ha! Yeah, my Mark Grace rookies need to pay for my next Lambo.

Arthur

Another thing we have in common! I got some sweet Grace rookies. His 89 Tiffany is my favorite. He was one of my favorite players growing up.

[NYRE2PECT]

I do not think that anyone has accused them of impropriety (trimming), but only of receiving favorable grading on a very percentage of their very high volume of submissions.

Two different animals.

Cheaters vs. preferred customers.

[dustin42]

Originally Posted by NYRE2PECT

I do not think that anyone has accused them of impropriety (trimming), but only of receiving favorable grading on a very percentage of their very high volume of submissions.

Two different animals.

Cheaters vs. preferred customers.

Yeah I haven't seen anything regarding trimming.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by NYRE2PECT

I do not think that anyone has accused them of impropriety (trimming), but only of receiving favorable grading on a very percentage of their very high volume of submissions.

Two different animals.

Cheaters vs. preferred customers.

Agree. I just think the accused percentage is wildly inaccurate.*

*Obviously, by now, I realize how this goes: Pip takes his shots, Bruins gets angry that I'm not angry enough, blah blah blah. I didn't make my initial post to take on the world. I just wanted to share my experience since it was different than the mob's and see how fast Pip could lose his shite over it.

Arthur

[pip]

I'll also buy already graded 10s when the price is right, which usually leads me to 4SC.

Given what we now know about PSA and high volume submitters, do you think this is prudent?

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Agree. I just think the accused percentage is wildly inaccurate.*

*Obviously, by now, I realize how this goes: Pip takes his shots, Bruins gets angry that I'm not angry enough, blah blah blah. I didn't make my initial post to take on the world. I just wanted to share my experience since it was different than the mob's and see how fast Pip could lose his shite over it.

Arthur

You could be right Arthur because 80s and 90s is not my thing (I even asked if they are submitting mostly modern material) but I have seen enough cards from them and have also bought from them or ended up with cards that they submitted, and the grades were soft, imo.

I never accused them of altering stuff but I do think they are recipients of benefits in the grading room. Those benefits may not be getting preferential grading but might be the result of sloppy work given their volume and turnaround times but my comments were not directed to disparage the owners but to point out PSA's not so level playing field.

But I will put my money where my mouth is and be the first to commit $1,000 towards the purchase of cards from them that could be broken out and resubmitted.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by pip

Given what we now know about PSA and high volume submitters, do you think this is prudent?

We haven't learned anything about high-volume submitters I didn't already know. What I've taken away from BODA's work is a list of dealers to never do business with and avoid cards who have passed through their hands. But my personal list of dealers like that is still much larger.

I can say I'm much more diligent in the work I put in pre- and post-purchase. I use the flip as a guide, not the final word. I examine every card when it arrives as though it weren't in a slab at all.

But will I roll the dice with 4SC that my '87 Topps Todd Worrell PSA 10 is probably going to be in PSA 10 condition? Yeah, absolutely.

Arthur

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

You could be right Arthur because 80s and 90s is not my thing (I even asked if they are submitting mostly modern material) but I have seen enough cards from them and have also bought from them or ended up with cards that they submitted, and the grades were soft, imo.

I never accused them of altering stuff but I do think they are recipients of benefits in the grading room. Those benefits may not be getting preferential grading but might be the result of sloppy work given their volume and turnaround times but my comments were not directed to disparage the owners but to point out PSA's not so level playing field.

But I will put my money where my mouth is and be the first to commit $1,000 towards the purchase of cards from them that could be broken out and resubmitted.

I agree with your premise, I just don't think it's to the extreme you do. But we've both said our peace and I just wanted to have the other side of the coin represented. I wasn't trying to start an argument and I appreciate that you didn't take it that way.

Arthur

[pip]

Arthur,

Just out of curiosity, how many 4SC PSA 10s do you own? Are we talking hundreds or thousands? Also, how's Evan doing?

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by pip

Arthur,

Just out of curiosity, how many 4SC PSA 10s do you own? Are we talking hundreds or thousands? Also, how's Evan doing?

At least 500,000. Maybe 600,000 if last week's order has come in.

An Evan reference? I mean, you realize I came on here and laid out an entire mea culpa about how I was wrong, right? That's what self-confident people do, pip, they admit when they're wrong and they learn from their mistakes. They don't double-down and go into denial because their entire world has been built around a self-image that they are the ultimate online message board hobby insider and that they know EVERYTHING.

Anything in the hobby that is even hinted at here that you can't speak about gets shouted down by you as impossible because, in your mind, nothing exists in this hobby that you don't know about and, to accept otherwise, would be to allow a delicate self-portrait that you cannot exist without to crumble into a hundred pieces. Your entire sense of self-worth is based on that identity. You know everything about the hobby. You're never wrong. You're all-knowing when it comes to the baseball card hobby.

So, in your mind, making a reference to something that I admitted I was wrong about is some kind of personal jab you've taken at me. Me admitting I was wrong is seen as a weakness to you. That's really, really sad. I hope you're able to find some fulfillment in your life that is real and makes you happy. You have value outside of this message board. This is just baseball cards.

Arthur

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I agree with your premise, I just don't think it's to the extreme you do. But we've both said our peace and I just wanted to have the other side of the coin represented. I wasn't trying to start an argument and I appreciate that you didn't take it that way.

Arthur

I always appreciate other peoples' perspectives even if I do not agree with them. I do not have all the answers and you provided me info that I did not have so, thank you, but I would certainly be interested in an informal "experiment" to see if I really am that off base.

[rcmb3220]

Originally Posted by NYRE2PECT

I do not think that anyone has accused them of impropriety (trimming), but only of receiving favorable grading on a very percentage of their very high volume of submissions.

Two different animals.

Cheaters vs. preferred customers.

They monitor the CU forum like a hawk.

[charnick]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I just wanted to share my experience since it was different than the mob's and see how fast Pip could lose his shite over it.

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I just wanted to have the other side of the coin represented. I wasn't trying to start an argument and I appreciate that you didn't take it that way.

Just a fair minded lurker here who agrees with you sometime and disagrees with you others. Same with pip. But if you're making posts with the partial intention of pissing off other members, that adds nothing to the conversation. Plus, when someone is having the other side of the coin represented, and especially in the context of these threads and your posting history, it absolutely looks like you're trying to start an argument.

I also don't have nearly as much experience with 4SC as you do, but when one of the cards I bought from them shows up with a print error on the back like this, yeah, I tend to think they get favorable grades.




I also have other reasons for coming to my conclusions on PSA outside of everything posted here, and it ain't pretty.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by charnick

I also don't have nearly as much experience with 4SC as you do, but when one of the cards I bought from them shows up with a print error on the back like this, yeah, I tend to think they get favorable grades.

Maybe the grader thought it was an intentional printing of a football?

As to my thoughts on 4SC, they submit millions of cards because they are one of the few companies allowed to submit at Min grade pricing, right? So they can submit 1,000 cards with a min grade of PSA 10 at like $2/each. The ones that PSA deems worth of 10s then get slabbed and 4SC gets charged like $5/each. So of course they get a #@#@#@#@-ton of PSA 10s, because they're pretty much getting PSA 10s or raw cards returned.
And it is then favorable to PSA to declare more cards as PSA 10, because then they earn $3/ea more than the cards they return in cardsavers.

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

At least 500,000. Maybe 600,000 if last week's order has come in.

An Evan reference? I mean, you realize I came on here and laid out an entire mea culpa about how I was wrong, right? That's what self-confident people do, pip, they admit when they're wrong and they learn from their mistakes. They don't double-down and go into denial because their entire world has been built around a self-image that they are the ultimate online message board hobby insider and that they know EVERYTHING.

Anything in the hobby that is even hinted at here that you can't speak about gets shouted down by you as impossible because, in your mind, nothing exists in this hobby that you don't know about and, to accept otherwise, would be to allow a delicate self-portrait that you cannot exist without to crumble into a hundred pieces. Your entire sense of self-worth is based on that identity. You know everything about the hobby. You're never wrong. You're all-knowing when it comes to the baseball card hobby.

So, in your mind, making a reference to something that I admitted I was wrong about is some kind of personal jab you've taken at me. Me admitting I was wrong is seen as a weakness to you. That's really, really sad. I hope you're able to find some fulfillment in your life that is real and makes you happy. You have value outside of this message board. This is just baseball cards.

Arthur

You have 500,000 slabs? My brain can’t wrap around that

[NYRE2PECT]

Originally Posted by asujbl

You have 500,000 slabs? My brain can’t wrap around that

I took that as a tongue-in-cheek response to Pip....could be wrong, but a little unlikely.

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by NYRE2PECT

I took that as a tongue-in-cheek response to Pip....could be wrong, but a little unlikely.

I haven’t read any of this thread so you’re probably right. My bad.