BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[doowopbruce]

lolol

[sabrgeek]

Originally Posted by CalCub

Since this Joe Clemons Grading Scam with Beckett emerged last year....has BGS been losing more market share to PSA in terms of grading submissions?

Seems like PSA is backlogged much more than BGS....maybe people have lost trust in BGS and trust PSA more?

PSA as a public company has to announce these types of numbers; BGS as a privately-owned company does not. We don't know the full extent to how far BGS is behind. So we don't know the market share #'s at all.

Rich

[CalCub]

Originally Posted by sabrgeek

PSA as a public company has to announce these types of numbers; BGS as a privately-owned company does not. We don't know the full extent to how far BGS is behind. So we don't know the market share #'s at all.

Rich

Okay, but it sounds like you're comment "we don't know the full extent to how far BGS is behind..." is suggesting that PSA is overall more popular (larger market share) than BGS for baseball cards...is that what you're saying?

[oddstuff]

Originally Posted by CalCub

Since this Joe Clemons Grading Scam with Beckett emerged last year....has BGS been losing more market share to PSA in terms of grading submissions?

Seems like PSA is backlogged much more than BGS....maybe people have lost trust in BGS and trust PSA more?

Can't exactly when...but it seems like it was several years ago when BGS started to experience a huge backlog like PSA is going through now. That backlog caused some BGS submitters to switch over to PSA. PSA sold prices at that time was just slightly ahead, but since that time, the gap has widen significantly to where it is today....and because of the rather large disparity between PSA and BGS graded sold prices, the turnaround time at PSA is getting greater with each day. If PSA isn't able to reduce the turnaround time, who knows, they may start to lose market share too. Right now is an opportunity for BGS to recapture some of that market share if they could come out with some sort of innovation, or turnaround graded items quicker...but instead of doing the quicker turnaround, they've gone the opposite way, so go figure...doesn't make much business sense. Hire more graders...I know it takes time to find/train graders...but it's a golden opportunity for BGS to make a move.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by CalCub

Since this Joe Clemons Grading Scam with Beckett emerged last year....has BGS been losing more market share to PSA in terms of grading submissions?

Seems like PSA is backlogged much more than BGS....maybe people have lost trust in BGS and trust PSA more?

Not sure about market share but here's a look at some data I put together, while studying the Black Labels last year.



I might try to update with 2020 stats but with the Corona shutdown, the statistics will likely not provide an accurate comparison for several of the months.

Also, if you look back at this thread, I posted some specifics about February (month Beckett ended their guaranteed turnaround). The "backlog" that apparently forced the policy change, appears to be related to a seasonal deal with MJ Holding (retailer) and the BCCG program.
1/3 (31,000) of the February 2020 items graded were 2019 Sage Patrick Mahomes BCCG 10's which can be found in those junk repack, gems of the game football boxes you find a Target, Walmart....

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1353367

[MoreToppsPlease]

Heh @ the 31K Mahomes 10s!

I bet if I subbed 31K cards to BGS they’d all come back 10s as well.

[WJCIII]

Anybody that thinks BGS would allow BCCG to create a backlog knows absolutely nothing about BGS or grading in general. Auburn's numbers are based on his own speculation and bias with complete disregard for facts.

[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by WJCIII

Anybody that thinks BGS would allow BCCG to create a backlog knows absolutely nothing about BGS or grading in general. Auburn's numbers are based on his own speculation and bias with complete disregard for facts.

You're still allowed to post here?

[WJCIII]

Originally Posted by dizzydolse

You're still allowed to post here?

Why wouldn't I be, Pete? What forum rules have I broken?

[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by WJCIII

Why wouldn't I be, Pete? What forum rules have I broken?

Just messing with you, Joey! You're always welcome here. Tell us more about BGS.

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by dizzydolse

You're still allowed to post here?

Hey be nice Ole Eagle Eye hasn't been able to zip thru common boxes at card shows lately...

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[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by hxcmilkshake

Hey be nice Ole Eagle Eye hasn't been able to zip thru common boxes at card shows lately...

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[WJCIII]

Originally Posted by dizzydolse

Thanks for the concern, fellas! No shows so no boxes to thumb through but I’m doing just fine with Bowman and Mosaic basketball.

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by WJCIII

Thanks for the concern, fellas! No shows so no boxes to thumb through but I’m doing just fine with Bowman and Mosaic basketball.

That's great to hear. Any cool stories about cheating your way to get that stuff? Cmon don't be shy....

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[oddstuff]

Originally Posted by oddstuff

Can't exactly when...but it seems like it was several years ago when BGS started to experience a huge backlog like PSA is going through now. That backlog caused some BGS submitters to switch over to PSA. PSA sold prices at that time was just slightly ahead, but since that time, the gap has widen significantly to where it is today....and because of the rather large disparity between PSA and BGS graded sold prices, the turnaround time at PSA is getting greater with each day. If PSA isn't able to reduce the turnaround time, who knows, they may start to lose market share too. Right now is an opportunity for BGS to recapture some of that market share if they could come out with some sort of innovation, or turnaround graded items quicker...but instead of doing the quicker turnaround, they've gone the opposite way, so go figure...doesn't make much business sense. Hire more graders...I know it takes time to find/train graders...but it's a golden opportunity for BGS to make a move.

The "backlog" I refer to was several years ago, when BGS was gaining on PSA in terms of number of submission. The recent policy change at BGS to do away with their guaranteed turnaround time is more related to the overall increase/boom in submissions (same reason why PSA bulk price and turnaround times went up) in the sports cards world (every where you look there's someone new asking about how to get into grading). BCCG graded cards are done much quicker than the BGS with subgrades. With BCCG, a grader is only looking at the overall quality of the card, just like BGS without subs...so the Mahomes BCCG project is not the cause of the policy change recently as that project were only looking for BCCG 10s which is equal to a Mint card...not gem mint.

[ScooterMcRibs]

I read through most of this and it reads like a diary of haterz. There's a very simple non-nefarious explanation as to how this guy is getting perfect 10s:

1) He's really good at estimating grades before submission (very possible since grading standards are published and objective). AND
2) He screens lots of product, either through card shows, opening product himself and/or online auctions. AND MAYBE
3) He's perfected a technique to clean up cards before submission to hide or smooth out flaws (think pressing in the comic book world).

None of these things are remotely unethical or illegal. It sounds like this guy is at the top of his professional game, maybe the top (or one of the top) collectors in the world and haterz don't appreciate it.

[sabrgeek]

Originally Posted by oddstuff

The "backlog" I refer to was several years ago, when BGS was gaining on PSA in terms of number of submission. The recent policy change at BGS to do away with their guaranteed turnaround time is more related to the overall increase/boom in submissions (same reason why PSA bulk price and turnaround times went up) in the sports cards world (every where you look there's someone new asking about how to get into grading). BCCG graded cards are done much quicker than the BGS with subgrades. With BCCG, a grader is only looking at the overall quality of the card, just like BGS without subs...so the Mahomes BCCG project is not the cause of the policy change recently as that project were only looking for BCCG 10s which is equal to a Mint card...not gem mint.

Also when it comes to BCCG, why would you focus on the process which brings in a lot less money per card. the equivalent (and I'm making this overly simple) is a dealer who has three types of cards; quarter cards; $5 cards; showcase cards. Which one should he or she focus on? Well the ones to focus on 1st is the high $ ones to bring in extra money, then the $5 then the quarter cards. Hopefully by the time you hit the quarter cards its just a matter of putting them into a box. Sometimes you have to think like a business person as difficult as that can be

Rich

[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by ScooterMcRibs

I read through most of this and it reads like a diary of haterz. There's a very simple non-nefarious explanation as to how this guy is getting perfect 10s:

1) He's really good at estimating grades before submission (very possible since grading standards are published and objective). AND
2) He screens lots of product, either through card shows, opening product himself and/or online auctions. AND MAYBE
3) He's perfected a technique to clean up cards before submission to hide or smooth out flaws (think pressing in the comic book world).

None of these things are remotely unethical or illegal. It sounds like this guy is at the top of his professional game, maybe the top (or one of the top) collectors in the world and haterz don't appreciate it.

We know, that's why his name is Eagle Eye Joe. Side note - interesting you edited your post for spelling but left the z's on "haterz"

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by WJCIII

Anybody that thinks BGS would allow BCCG to create a backlog knows absolutely nothing about BGS or grading in general. Auburn's numbers are based on his own speculation and bias with complete disregard for facts.

Huh?

I didn't suggest BCCG created a backlog, I was referencing the other thread with a statement from Beckett and the posts by oddstuff in both threads.

Originally Posted by oddstuff

There's no reason for Beckett to use up their graders time grading at a lower price level unless it's a custom order. Their graders' time are better used grading at the higher service levels.

Originally Posted by oddstuff

Right now is an opportunity for BGS to recapture some of that market share if they could come out with some sort of innovation, or turnaround graded items quicker...but instead of doing the quicker turnaround, they've gone the opposite way, so go figure...doesn't make much business sense.

Allowing BCCG to exist doesn't help reduce the backlog of items currently and soon to be entered into the grading system. As oddstuff mentioned, it's a quick review service but still takes valuable time from both the grading and slabbing departments.

If you read the linked thread, while removing their turnaround guarantee, Beckett also dropped BCCG from their grading website. That is the factual connection, I was highlighting with BCCG and the turnaround policy change. https://www.beckett.com/grading/compare-our-services

No longer a publicly advertised service, after the policy change.


The grading numbers (I didn't make them up) display that February was a perfect storm of both high BGS and BCCG totals but neither on it's own was unusual for Beckett and probably shouldn't have been a breaking point for the change. I haven't looked at March-current but historically, the grading outputs vary from month to month.

Here's 2018 for a comparison. Similar to 2019 and the months I've looked at from 2020, months with higher overall totals are directly linked (objectively) to retail companies submitting BCCG orders.


Also, if anyone wants to lookup the Patrick Mahomes cards, here you go.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...&LH_Complete=1

[Onepocketj]

Originally Posted by ScooterMcRibs

I read through most of this and it reads like a diary of haterz. There's a very simple non-nefarious explanation as to how this guy is getting perfect 10s:

1) He's really good at estimating grades before submission (very possible since grading standards are published and objective). AND
2) He screens lots of product, either through card shows, opening product himself and/or online auctions. AND MAYBE
3) He's perfected a technique to clean up cards before submission to hide or smooth out flaws (think pressing in the comic book world).

None of these things are remotely unethical or illegal. It sounds like this guy is at the top of his professional game, maybe the top (or one of the top) collectors in the world and haterz don't appreciate it.

Idiotic post. You clearly didn't read the thread. I don't care how good your eyes are. You don't go through boxes and pick out the only 10's out of thousands of examples graded. Everyone else skipped over the perfect cards in those boxes that only he could see. Open your eyes.

[This is]

Hapy 1 year anniversary to this thread!

[doowopbruce]

Originally Posted by ScooterMcRibs

I read through most of this and it reads like a diary of haterz. There's a very simple non-nefarious explanation as to how this guy is getting perfect 10s:

1) He's really good at estimating grades before submission (very possible since grading standards are published and objective). AND
2) He screens lots of product, either through card shows, opening product himself and/or online auctions. AND MAYBE
3) He's perfected a technique to clean up cards before submission to hide or smooth out flaws (think pressing in the comic book world).

None of these things are remotely unethical or illegal. It sounds like this guy is at the top of his professional game, maybe the top (or one of the top) collectors in the world and haterz don't appreciate it.

Obviously.

[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by doowopbruce

Obviously.

Where do you find these guys, Joe? I'm in the market for a posse.

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by Onepocketj

Idiotic post. You clearly didn't read the thread. I don't care how good your eyes are. You don't go through boxes and pick out the only 10's out of thousands of examples graded. Everyone else skipped over the perfect cards in those boxes that only he could see. Open your eyes.

Hahaha! Hes a playa kid! Well known for 30 yearz!!! Thanks for the chuckle Scooter!

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[WJCIII]

Originally Posted by dizzydolse

Where do you find these guys, Joe? I'm in the market for a posse.

Hmmmm....maybe we’re the same person?