BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[cking]

Originally Posted by ScooterMcRibs

1) He's really good at estimating grades before submission (very possible since grading standards are published and objective

Huh...I guess I was uninformed

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by WJCIII

Hmmmm....maybe we’re the same person?

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[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by WJCIII

Hmmmm....maybe we’re the same person?

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[WJCIII]

Originally Posted by dizzydolse

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If you can't find your own posse you're welcome to join mine.

[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by WJCIII

If you can't find your own posse you're welcome to join mine.

If you fire doowop and scootermcribs, I’ll consider it.


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[WJCIII]

Originally Posted by dizzydolse

If you fire doowop and scootermcribs, I’ll consider it.


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No way man, they're with me all the way. You should join us though, we like to party!

[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by WJCIII

No way man, they're with me all the way. You should join us though, we like to party!

Actual footage of your Black Label party...

[hxcmilkshake]

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[auburn35]

It was brought to my attention that Brain Gray (Leaf) was a guest on a recent podcast, which eventually got around to discussing this Black Label topic.

About The Cards Podcast - Episode 101
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMoo...outu.be&t=1932

The video link is setup to start at the Black Label conversation but the rest of the video has discussions on "investing" and trimming..., if anyone is interested in hearing about those topics from Brian Gray.

This is the post that Brian is talking about at the end, trying to spin that Joe could be submitting 3,000, 8,000, 20,000 cards to get all of his Black Labels, as it's unknown how many cards he submits or how Beckett inputs his cards into the system.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1714

Originally Posted by superdan49

By my count, those 30 orders contained 767 cards, with 108 of those earning BGS 10 Black Labels. 23 of these 30 were processed by BGS as "Bulk 10-Day Non-Guaranteed" service level, another 6 of these orders were "Ten-Day-Old" service level, and the remaining 2 of these orders were "On-Site Same Day." Each order was both delivered and picked up by Joe in person.

It's pretty clear that Joe's account showed a total of 767 card were graded, over these 30 orders. Also showcased are the different service methods that processed the orders.

Originally Posted by superdan49

Joe agreed to provide data only from Black Labels, not regular Pristine 10s.

Not surprisingly, but I believe that Brian is lying when he says it was Superdan's choice, to only share the Black Label information from Joe's account. Maybe Joe can confirm who is telling the truth.

[cking]

This is all you need to know about Leaf right here

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by cking

This is all you need to know about Leaf right here

At first I thought you were commenting on Jennifer Jason Leigh the hot actress, then I saw the auto, LOL.

[kooky4cards]

[dizzydolse]

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[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by dizzydolse

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Funny.

[pspa123]

108/767 is 14 percent. At the risk of rehashing old ground, what is the overall percentage of black labels?

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by pspa123

108/767 is 14 percent. At the risk of rehashing old ground, what is the overall percentage of black labels?

Not 100% accurate, as I'm not sure if BVG should be included (Anyone seen a BVG Black Label?) but even with those removed from the totals, there is very little change in the %.

Using the data that the group has put together, here's a good look at the overall Black Label %.
2018 Black label percentage would be .0024% 1399/572,450 (Black Labels/ Cards graded, removed BCCG)
2019 Black label percentage would be .0031% 1820/579,200

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Not 100% accurate, as I'm not sure if BVG should be included (Anyone seen a BVG Black Label?) but even with those removed from the totals, there is very little change in the %.

Using the data that the group has put together, here's a good look at the overall Black Label %.
2018 Black label percentage would be .0024% 1399/572,450 (Black Labels/ Cards graded, removed BCCG)
2019 Black label percentage would be .0031% 1820/579,200

I guess Joe is doing just a little bit better than average. Of course it's not apples to apples but even so.

[auburn35]

As Joe had been popping back in the thread, I thought he might provide some insight into his boss's lies about superdan49, but maybe not.

Don't have to search long, to find misleading comments from Brian (Leaf) but it's good that Joe had previously confirmed Dan's statement and shows that Brian can't be trusted to tell the truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMoo...outu.be&t=1932
"The guy on the blowout board that looked at Joe's account, saw everything but choose not to talk about it.... not as much fun"

Originally Posted by WJCIII

I allowed Dan to share only the black labels because this nonsense has to stop somewhere.

Originally Posted by superdan49

Joe agreed to provide data only from Black Labels, not regular Pristine 10s.

Thought I would add to the Leaf photo gallery.

[This is]

Aubrun did you send those quotes from Joe and SuperDan that prove Brian lied to the About The Cards Podcast guys?? I don't know if they are even members here.

[sabrgeek]

Originally Posted by This is

Aubrun did you send those quotes from Joe and SuperDan that prove Brian lied to the About The Cards Podcast guys?? I don't know if they are even members here.

Not sure if they are members here but they are very active on twitter and you can always catch up on any of their episodes on you tube.

Rich

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by This is

Aubrun did you send those quotes from Joe and SuperDan that prove Brian lied to the About The Cards Podcast guys?? I don't know if they are even members here.

I did reach out to the hosts but never heard back.

On a similar topic, Jeromy Murray (Beckett) was recently a guest on Sports Cards Live and was asked about this Black Label thread and like Leaf (Brian Gray is the next guest on Sports Cards Live) provided a statement which contradicts Joe's own.

Jeromy explains the Black Label's highlighted in this thread as having been minimum grade 10 submissions and there is nothing to see.
Joe's own statements and grading submissions shared in this thread show Jeromy isn't accurate with his attempt at an explanation.

Video should start at the Black Label discussion but the rest of the interview is also a good listen.
https://youtu.be/7qKLbIQliwI?t=5554

Interestingly, both Jeromy and Joe have publicly discussed their testimony on this topic, which unfortunately is sealed from public but each offers opposing rationale. Would be really interested to know if the sealed testimony was also contradictory or if it's just the PR spins from Leaf and Beckett at Joe's expense that differ from the sealed testimony.

[tonedef2oo8]

Originally Posted by auburn35

As Joe had been popping back in the thread, I thought he might provide some insight into his boss's lies about superdan49, but maybe not.

Don't have to search long, to find misleading comments from Brian (Leaf) but it's good that Joe had previously confirmed Dan's statement and shows that Brian can't be trusted to tell the truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMoo...outu.be&t=1932
"The guy on the blowout board that looked at Joe's account, saw everything but choose not to talk about it.... not as much fun"






Thought I would add to the Leaf photo gallery.

The used car salesman strikes again!

Isn’t this like the 800th time he’s been busting lying.

[auburn35]

I told Jeremy of Sports Cards Live that I would post a rebuttal, following his recent interviews with Beckett and Leaf.

Both guests (Brian and Jeromy) commented about their testimony (sealed from the public) as "proof" nothing happened but there's nothing to look at, so that's an easy claim to make.
It's unknown what questions were asked and how they were answered, so using only what is publicly available (their own, inconsistent words) I thought I would review their comments.

Jeromy Murray – I already posted a brief recap in post 4346 but here is a more detailed review.

In the interview, Jeromy explains that Joe uses a BGS 10 Minimum grade on his submissions, which allow him to achieve all the noted BGS 10 grades. Later in the same interview Jeromy referenced that Joe shared the grading results from his own account and provided a breakdown of the Beckett submission process from start to finish.

Fact check - Joe shared his Beckett submissions with a board member and not a single submission was described as a BGS 10 minimum grade submission. I have no idea why Jeromy would claim this as his one explanation of the events, knowing that the account results were publicly shared and differed from this minimum grade theory. Jeromy also used an example of Joe’s submissions achieving only a 10/100 success rate on BGS 10’s, which questions the position of Leaf/Joe that Joe is just better at identifying cards than most and would be a senior level Beckett grader.

Also, touching on the topic of preferential treatment that both Beckett and Leaf denied, using those same submissions that Jeromy mentioned and Joe provided, most of the 30 submissions that Joe shared appear to actually be 1-day orders (dropped off and picked up the same day), while being identified as Bulk 10-Day Non-Guaranteed or 10-day-old submissions.
Having special submission methods is the definition of the preferential treatment identified within the thread, while at the same time also questioning the checks/balances and security that Jeromy mentioned, while describing the handling process of a specific submission.

A 10-day service wouldn't get processed as a 1-day order, if those 5-6 security steps that Jeromy touted as a reasons preferential treatment couldn't occur, actually were utilized.

A few useful reference threads.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1714
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4194
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4010
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4196

Brian Gray-

Video should start at the beginning of Brian's comments and following that segment, Brian again talks on topic (these comments were the most interesting) starting at 2:35.40
https://youtu.be/XUpWsesqLd8?t=8480

I thought the biggest takeaway was the two different explanations about how the Leaf Valiant product is graded. He first spoke about how Leaf weeds through 30,000 cards to submit the best 5000 for grading. Later on, Brian implies that 20,000~ are submitted to Beckett as a special minimum grade submission, with Beckett only grading 5000~ and not logging the 15,000~ rejected cards. I realize these are likely just examples but Brian is clearly saying that at least his Leaf manufactured cards are processed differently than other Leaf/Beckett submissions.

This special submission method is another obvious example of preferential treatment and matches up with the "pay for the grade" example that was mentioned in the Black Label thread. As has been shown throughout this thread, Leaf/Joe submissions are essentially the same, as when identified they are often graded together (same day, similar serial numbers,…) with the same grade sorted process.

[dizzydolse]

Joe, how's the rest of your 2020 going? Is it still business as usual? Hobby is exploding but did this thread and BODA hurt anything?

Also, any update on that lawsuit?

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Brian Gray-


I thought the biggest takeaway was the two different explanations about how the Leaf Valiant product is graded. He first spoke about how Leaf weeds through 30,000 cards to submit the best 5000 for grading. Later on, Brian implies that 20,000~ are submitted to Beckett as a special minimum grade submission, with Beckett only grading 5000~ and not logging the 15,000~ rejected cards. I realize these are likely just examples but Brian is clearly saying that at least his Leaf manufactured cards are processed differently than other Leaf/Beckett submissions.

This special submission method is another obvious example of preferential treatment and matches up with the "pay for the grade" example that was mentioned in the Black Label thread. As has been shown throughout this thread, Leaf/Joe submissions are essentially the same, as when identified they are often graded together (same day, similar serial numbers,…) with the same grade sorted process.

In defense of Leaf, there are two different perspectives here. There is B2C(Business to Consumer) and B2B(Business to Business).

Any regular customer would expect the a bulk discount submitting 100 to 1000 cards. However, a business could arrange something entirely different, especially when you're getting in the tens of thousands of cards. I wouldn't call it preferential, I would call that smart business for both parties.

For Leaf, whether they submitted 20,000 or the best 5,000, the contract that was negotiated B2B has nothing to do with B2C side of the house of BGS. This is a manufacturer after all. These are new Chrome cards were talking about so I would expect BGS 10s in both amounts. I would actually expect more in the 5000 count submission considering they would've been screened already. Its clear that BGS 10s(gold or black) have a completely different value to a consumer. Leaf is obviously aware of that if its their minimum grade.

Saying all of that, I believe the issue with Joe Clemons is valid and if he's still employed by Leaf just hurts the brand name for the advanced collectors that are aware of his history.