PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc - Page 177

superdan49 · 07-21-2019, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salthill

Don’t forget some of superdan’s earliest work on trimming was discovering Brian Deer trying to improve the sensitivity of a paper guillotine. If he actually had that built he could get through paper cards in a flash...

I've wondered if Deer ever succeeded in getting a Berkeley engineering student to improve his paper cutter.

The Brian Deer fraud thread was just seven months ago. Look how far this has all come.

HarryLime · 07-21-2019, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonedef2oo8

Even where legal carrying and selling 5 pounds of weed is illegal. Soooo

Oh. Well in that case he should be tarred and feathered.

Arthur

corndog · 07-21-2019, 07:08 PM

PSA Cert #41820275

1957 Topps Paul Arizin RC #10 - Population 1 of 1 - Just Two Graded Higher

Value gain of $2,502.50

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-6 on July 18, 2018 for $120.50. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1694358
Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-8.5 for $2,623.00 on December 10, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1870230

From the PSA 6 listing description: "Centered with clean borders and solid EXMT corners. Typical excess surface print prevents a higher assessment."

From the PSA 8 listing description: "A glistening example of this key HOF rookie card. Among the market's finest copies with the offered example having just come back from PSA. Shows many attributes of a MINT card with stark white borders and print worthy of a museum. Never does the '57 Topps set afford examples with this level of production quality and overall preservation. A whisker from a PSA 9 and virtually impossible to improve upon."

Yellow circles are print or fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify a large amount of color blending to diminish the print flaws due to offset. PWCC has called it "snow" oe excess print, but the technical term is offset. Offsetting occurred during the printing process when the sheets were stacked in the delivery unit of the press. The ink that offset is seen on the back of the card (all of the excess black ink).

superdan49 · 07-21-2019, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corndog

PSA Cert #41820275

1957 Topps Paul Arizin RC #10 - Population 1 of 1 - Just Two Graded Higher

Value gain of $2,502.50

salthill · 07-21-2019, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superdan49

I've wondered if Deer ever succeeded in getting a Berkeley engineering student to improve his paper cutter.

We may only find out if authorities decide to follow that trail. They could pull on that thread a little harder than we can.

Quote:

The Brian Deer fraud thread was just seven months ago. Look how far this has all come.

I was following that thread in the moment. It was an eye opener, but what’s come since amazing.

Morgoth · 07-21-2019, 08:15 PM

Had a great conversation with Dick Towle yesterday at a card show. I will say the industry needs to admit what has been happening, at least Dick is out in the open about what he does. I understand now why Brent was so confident in stating what he did about conservation.

ken161 · 07-21-2019, 08:40 PM

Card doctors are attracted to these low-pop commons like a bee to honey.

To be honest, I don't consider the eye appeal of the PSA8.5 to be that much better. Certainly not worth paying more than 20 times as much. Unbelievable.

Collectors are going to have to change their buying habits or 312, corndog and superdan will be posting enough "conserved" cards to crash the servers.

[QUOTE=corndog;14867307]PSA Cert #41820275

1957 Topps Paul Arizin RC #10 - Population 1 of 1 - Just Two Graded Higher

Value gain of $2,502.50

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-6 on July 18, 2018 for $120.50. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1694358
Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-8.5 for $2,623.00 on December 10, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1870230

pspa123 · 07-21-2019, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth

Had a great conversation with Dick Towle yesterday at a card show. I will say the industry needs to admit what has been happening, at least Dick is out in the open about what he does. I understand now why Brent was so confident in stating what he did about conservation.

Is Towle still removing signatures from baseballs to create the appearance of single signed ones?

houdini · 07-21-2019, 10:13 PM

Remember to look at what people do (or don't do). It will tell you much more about their character and integrity than what they say (or type).

pspa123 · 07-21-2019, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pspa123

Is Towle still removing signatures from baseballs to create the appearance of single signed ones?

Found the link.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=115131

He also takes out creases. God's work.

PS He is banned now from 54. What a loss.

KhalDrogo · 07-21-2019, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pspa123

Found the link.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=115131

He also takes out creases. God's work.

PS He is banned now from 54. What a loss.

Why is he banned? He was just conserving.

ninjacookies · 07-21-2019, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corndog

PSA Cert #41820275

1957 Topps Paul Arizin RC #10 - Population 1 of 1 - Just Two Graded Higher

Value gain of $2,502.50

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-6 on July 18, 2018 for $120.50. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1694358
Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-8.5 for $2,623.00 on December 10, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1870230

From the PSA 6 listing description: "Centered with clean borders and solid EXMT corners. Typical excess surface print prevents a higher assessment."

From the PSA 8 listing description: "A glistening example of this key HOF rookie card. Among the market's finest copies with the offered example having just come back from PSA. Shows many attributes of a MINT card with stark white borders and print worthy of a museum. Never does the '57 Topps set afford examples with this level of production quality and overall preservation. A whisker from a PSA 9 and virtually impossible to improve upon."

Yellow circles are print or fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify a large amount of color blending to diminish the print flaws due to offset. PWCC has called it "snow" oe excess print, but the technical term is offset. Offsetting occurred during the printing process when the sheets were stacked in the delivery unit of the press. The ink that offset is seen on the back of the card (all of the excess black ink).

How on earth are they recoloring. That should be blatantly obvious under magnification, no?

pspa123 · 07-21-2019, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Why is he banned? He was just conserving.

Leon did not think it reflected well on the forum to have a card doctor as a member. Note how evasive he was in that old thread I posted.

Morgoth · 07-21-2019, 10:47 PM

The problem is the entire industry including the grading companies are using his or other services. He gets referrals from PSA and SGC and has met with them. PSA and others are going to have to come clean on what types of alteration they think is ok to do because they know its going on and have basically endorsed it.

SetBuilder · 07-21-2019, 10:51 PM

I read in the WaPo article comments that Jeff Lichtman is representing Brent Huigens now. Is this true? The same Lichtman who represents drug kingpin El Chapo?

pspa123 · 07-21-2019, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth

The problem is the entire industry including the grading companies are using his or other services. He gets referrals from PSA and SGC and has met with them. PSA and others are going to have to come clean on what types of alteration they think is ok to do because they know its going on and have basically endorsed it.

All that's public is the grading standards which on their face say nearly all his work is unacceptable. Referrals? So I can ask PSA and SGC who they recommend to clean my cards and they will refer me?

KhalDrogo · 07-21-2019, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth

The problem is the entire industry including the grading companies are using his or other services. He gets referrals from PSA and SGC and has met with them. PSA and others are going to have to come clean on what types of alteration they think is ok to do because they know its going on and have basically endorsed it.

Can you explain more?

superdan49 · 07-21-2019, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pspa123

All that's public is the grading standards which on their face say nearly all his work is unacceptable. Referrals? So I can ask PSA and SGC who they recommend to clean my cards and they will refer me?

Recall the sh*tstorm that arose when it was revealed that comic book restorer Susan Cicconi of The Restoration Lab worked on that '33 Goudey Gehrig and got it into a PSA holder. I'm sure there are many other Dicks and Susans out there doing this work more clandestinely, expertly altering certified by TPGs.

(Post #3535 for those who might have missed this.)

Morgoth · 07-21-2019, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pspa123

All that's public is the grading standards which on their face say nearly all his work is unacceptable. Referrals? So I can ask PSA and SGC who they recommend to clean my cards and they will refer me?

Yes according to Mr. Towle which again is why PSA and SGC both can't say they didn't know this was going on, I mean he has been advertising since the 80's.

Scenario would be, someone, most likely widow or kids contacts PSA or SGC with album full of E or T cards and they give them Towle's contact so he can help remove them and then they grade them. Same scenario for an auction house contacted to sell off dads collection.

pspa123 · 07-21-2019, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superdan49

Recall the sh*tstorm that arose when it was revealed that comic book restorer Susan Cicconi of The Restoration Lab worked on that '33 Goudey Gehrig and got it into a PSA holder. I'm sure there are many other Dicks and Susans out there doing this work more clandestinely, expertly altering certified by TPGs.

(Post #3535 for those who might have missed this.)

Susan's close to me, maybe I'll bring in some cards.

pspa123 · 07-21-2019, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth

Yes according to Mr. Towle which again is why PSA and SGC both can't say they didn't know this was going on, I mean he has been advertising since the 80's.

Scenario would be, someone, most likely widow or kids contacts PSA or SGC with album full of E or T cards and they give them Towle's contact so he can help remove them and then they grade them. Same scenario for an auction house contacted to sell off dads collection.

Scrapbook removal with water is fine by most people. Chemical cleaning is not. Neither is crease removal. World of difference.

Morgoth · 07-21-2019, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pspa123

Susan's close to me, maybe I'll bring in some cards.

There are many out there for sure. It will be interesting to see what is allowed in the future because the cats getting out of the bag.

pspa123 · 07-21-2019, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth

There are many out there for sure. It will be interesting to see what is allowed in the future because the cats getting out of the bag.

The whole thing is BS. There is no legitimate reason to whiten a card using bleach or peroxide or whatever. It's done to deceive. And to upgrade the almighty flip.

superdan49 · 07-21-2019, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pspa123

Susan's close to me, maybe I'll bring in some cards.

DO IT! And report back here with the results

pspa123 · 07-21-2019, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superdan49

DO IT! And report back here with the results

My impression from emailing with Susan was that she didn't really understand the particular ethics of baseball card restoration, as opposed to other items she works on. Now she could have been disingenuous, I suppose.

07-21-2019, 07:08 PM	#4403
corndog BODA Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: From a table in McDonalds, with lovely fake flowers on it. Posts: 18,004	PSA Cert #41820275 1957 Topps Paul Arizin RC #10 - Population 1 of 1 - Just Two Graded Higher Value gain of $2,502.50 This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-6 on July 18, 2018 for $120.50. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1694358 Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-8.5 for $2,623.00 on December 10, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1870230 From the PSA 6 listing description: "Centered with clean borders and solid EXMT corners. Typical excess surface print prevents a higher assessment." From the PSA 8 listing description: "A glistening example of this key HOF rookie card. Among the market's finest copies with the offered example having just come back from PSA. Shows many attributes of a MINT card with stark white borders and print worthy of a museum. Never does the '57 Topps set afford examples with this level of production quality and overall preservation. A whisker from a PSA 9 and virtually impossible to improve upon." Yellow circles are print or fiber identifiers. Red squares identify a large amount of color blending to diminish the print flaws due to offset. PWCC has called it "snow" oe excess print, but the technical term is offset. Offsetting occurred during the printing process when the sheets were stacked in the delivery unit of the press. The ink that offset is seen on the back of the card (all of the excess black ink). __________________ He has no rival, He has no equal.

07-21-2019, 10:13 PM	#4409
houdini member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 81,458	Remember to look at what people do (or don't do). It will tell you much more about their character and integrity than what they say (or type). __________________ Descanse mi princesita 9/20/00-4/16/15

07-21-2019, 08:15 PM	#4406
Morgoth Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 3,924	Had a great conversation with Dick Towle yesterday at a card show. I will say the industry needs to admit what has been happening, at least Dick is out in the open about what he does. I understand now why Brent was so confident in stating what he did about conservation.

07-21-2019, 08:40 PM	#4407
ken161 Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 416	Card doctors are attracted to these low-pop commons like a bee to honey. To be honest, I don't consider the eye appeal of the PSA8.5 to be that much better. Certainly not worth paying more than 20 times as much. Unbelievable. Collectors are going to have to change their buying habits or 312, corndog and superdan will be posting enough "conserved" cards to crash the servers. [QUOTE=corndog;14867307]PSA Cert #41820275 1957 Topps Paul Arizin RC #10 - Population 1 of 1 - Just Two Graded Higher Value gain of $2,502.50 This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-6 on July 18, 2018 for $120.50. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1694358 Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-8.5 for $2,623.00 on December 10, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1870230

07-21-2019, 10:47 PM	#4414
Morgoth Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 3,924	The problem is the entire industry including the grading companies are using his or other services. He gets referrals from PSA and SGC and has met with them. PSA and others are going to have to come clean on what types of alteration they think is ok to do because they know its going on and have basically endorsed it.

07-21-2019, 10:51 PM	#4415
SetBuilder Member Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Paradise Posts: 376	I read in the WaPo article comments that Jeff Lichtman is representing Brent Huigens now. Is this true? The same Lichtman who represents drug kingpin El Chapo?