Topps Project 2020 is the worst product since 1991 Fleer

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by dbpsooner

This made me laugh.

After thinking about it more, I think my criticism of Vides is probably somewhat misguided. I think my biggest issue is my own personal disappointment in what he has released. Having seen some of his other work, I feel like there is a set in there that would look amazing...to me. If he played with the colors more, using black and white primarity, with team colors mixed in, I think his cards/set would be at the very top of my list. Obviously he had a different vision and I shouldn't project my disappointment onto his effort level for this project. But I will remain disappointed...

from the limited stuff of his ive seen outside of P2020, it appears his work IS in B&W. how would he be expected to use color on P2020?

also, he appears to be an artists that takes everyday real life 3D items, and makes them appear to be 2D

baseball cards are already 2D

[Silas Barnaby]

Originally Posted by dbpsooner

Obviously he had a different vision and I shouldn't project my disappointment onto his effort level for this project. But I will remain disappointed...

This seems like a fair approach.

[blakejamieson]

Originally Posted by mwheeler27

In regards to football, (your analogy), there is no "might be true" about it. I played football, and I saw kids with nothing but speed get full ride scholarships based solely on potential. They weren't good at catching the football and couldn't hang on to it if it was handed to them, yet they were offensive players that sat the bench with full-ride scholarships.

They were born with the speed, and they were paid for that speed. While others were paid because they honed their skills in regards to fundamentals by sacrificing time spent doing other things.

I also have 6 children, and I can tell you that some are more artistically inclined than others. One in particular is very good and has won local and state competitions at a young age. All of my kids had the same teachers and opportunities growing up. So while you might be right saying "might", you also might be wrong, and I think there is good evidence that suggests people are born with different talents...athletically, artistically, and otherwise.

Appreciate your opinion, but gotta agree to disagree here.

The speedy athlete is also fast(er) because they keep running and training. I know this can be a self fulfilling prophecy because the fast kid might get more reps at a young age, and the talent gap continues to grow.

In sports, we often see kids who are "old for their grade" (born right before a cutoff to be bumped up to the next grade, or held back a year by parents) excel. This likely due to the fact that one year of physical growth is significant when kids are young. Those "old for their grade" kids are bigger and stronger, and get more opportunities on the filed or court. That extra playing time results in more reps and higher confidence, which perpetuates the skill imbalance. In this example, it's easy to say that kid was "born with talent or speed," but that's not really what's going on.

With regards to your kids getting the same opportunities, I still disagree that the "training" is exactly the same. Even with the same teachers, is it safe to assume that they were in those teacher's classes at different times? Because one year, that teacher might be inspired and more willing to encourage a student, while the following year the teacher could have external factors distracting them, which trickles down to the teaching approach, which trickles down to a different experience for the students.

I agree some kids are more artistically or athletically inclined, but more so in mindset that is developed through nurture. Winning those art awards (awesome, btw!) will give that child of yours more confidence in his art, so he is more likely continue with artistic pursuits. On the flip side, that same award might subconsciously push your other children to avoid art in pursuit of something else they can shine at.

Again, just my two cents. I don't think we can objectively prove one way or the other.

[dbpsooner]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

from the limited stuff of his ive seen outside of P2020, it appears his work IS in B&W. how would he be expected to use color on P2020?

also, he appears to be an artists that takes everyday real life 3D items, and makes them appear to be 2D

baseball cards are already 2D

I think black and white alone would look great, way better than what we are getting...at least imo. 2D can still look good...

[Pacmeyer]

Originally Posted by mwheeler27

To be fair, TBP has called one of the P2020 artists a "fraud". That was probably at least borderline hateful at the time.

Sometimes we have to call a spade a spade.

But said artist, if I remember correctly, isn't registered here and will probably never lay eyes on this thread.

It's a different matter to engage in personal attacks that you know the subject will read. If someone does it in an amusing or lighthearted way, no problem (thanks cardiq!).

[mwheeler27]

Originally Posted by blakejamieson

Appreciate your opinion, but gotta agree to disagree here.

The speedy athlete is also fast(er) because they keep running and training. I know this can be a self fulfilling prophecy because the fast kid might get more reps at a young age, and the talent gap continues to grow.

In sports, we often see kids who are "old for their grade" (born right before a cutoff to be bumped up to the next grade, or held back a year by parents) excel. This likely due to the fact that one year of physical growth is significant when kids are young. Those "old for their grade" kids are bigger and stronger, and get more opportunities on the filed or court. That extra playing time results in more reps and higher confidence, which perpetuates the skill imbalance. In this example, it's easy to say that kid was "born with talent or speed," but that's not really what's going on.

With regards to your kids getting the same opportunities, I still disagree that the "training" is exactly the same. Even with the same teachers, is it safe to assume that they were in those teacher's classes at different times? Because one year, that teacher might be inspired and more willing to encourage a student, while the following year the teacher could have external factors distracting them, which trickles down to the teaching approach, which trickles down to a different experience for the students.

I agree some kids are more artistically or athletically inclined, but more so in mindset that is developed through nurture. Winning those art awards (awesome, btw!) will give that child of yours more confidence in his art, so he is more likely continue with artistic pursuits. On the flip side, that same award might subconsciously push your other children to avoid art in pursuit of something else they can shine at.

Again, just my two cents. I don't think we can objectively prove one way or the other.

Blake, you are really reaching with some of this.

While I agree with nearly everything you said, what you are saying applies to people born with equal talents.

Take an autistic savant, for example. (An extreme example, I know). Without a doubt, people are "born" this way. They have mental disabilities in many respects yet excel way beyond average in other respects. Some in mathematical abilities, some in artistic abilities such as music, etc. This is scientific fact. Not opinion.

Surely you will agree with me that autistic savants are "born" with their exceptional abilities that everyone else as a whole is not, and if there are extreme situations like this that exist, more minor situations are most likely to exist as well.

It's common sense really, though often people try to use detailed psychology or other means to explain the simplest of things when it's really just plain and simple gifts you are born with.

[Oliroller]

I believe that "said artist" absolutely has seen this thread. His Bashers card and some of his tweets after its release seem to indicate he is well aware of the critics.

[mwheeler27]

Originally Posted by Pacmeyer

But said artist, if I remember correctly, isn't registered here and will probably never lay eyes on this thread.

It's a different matter to engage in personal attacks that you know the subject will read. If someone does it in an amusing or lighthearted way, no problem (thanks cardiq!).

Wait a minute...

It's okay to chastise someone if they won't know you're doing it, but not okay if they can see or hear you doing it?

[ThoseBackPages]

GOOD.

keep reading (L)OLDMANALAN.

[Oliroller]

TBP may actually be inspiring the Oldman!

[coltsnsox07]

Grandma Moses didn't start painting until she was 78..

[Shinjoy]

Originally Posted by Oliroller

TBP may actually be inspiring the Oldman!

I've wondered if TBP actually IS Oldmanalan. Or, he's a massive fan keeping it on the down low. I figured TBP can't hate Oldman's great work in this project so much, so he was just generating heat for his main (old) man. No publicity is bad publicity.

[Shinjoy]

Originally Posted by coltsnsox07

Grandma Moses didn't start painting until she was 78..

Grandma Moses would tear it up on this project! She could've saved Bowman if they'd hired her to do insert cards for the '55 set.

(I also would've loved to see Howard Finster go Biblical on his Mariano Rivera card)

[Oliroller]

Good point....TBP may be buying up all of Oldmanalan's cards waiting for the values to explode once he releases his epic Trout card

[Pacmeyer]

Originally Posted by Oliroller

I believe that "said artist" absolutely has seen this thread. His Bashers card and some of his tweets after its release seem to indicate he is well aware of the critics.

There's also FB, IG, and Twitter for that which are all probably far worse. At least BO has mods actually paying attention lol.

[blakejamieson]

Originally Posted by mwheeler27

Blake, you are really reaching with some of this.

While I agree with nearly everything you said, what you are saying applies to people born with equal talents.

Take an autistic savant, for example. (An extreme example, I know). Without a doubt, people are "born" this way. They have mental disabilities in many respects yet excel way beyond average in other respects. Some in mathematical abilities, some in artistic abilities such as music, etc. This is scientific fact. Not opinion.

Surely you will agree with me that autistic savants are "born" with their exceptional abilities that everyone else as a whole is not, and if there are extreme situations like this that exist, more minor situations are most likely to exist as well.

It's common sense really, though often people try to use detailed psychology or other means to explain the simplest of things when it's really just plain and simple gifts you are born with.

Yes, I agree with above about an autistic savant, but also stand by my previous example. There is plenty of data to back it up. For starters, I recommend "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell.

[dbpsooner]

Originally Posted by blakejamieson

Appreciate your opinion, but gotta agree to disagree here.

The speedy athlete is also fast(er) because they keep running and training. I know this can be a self fulfilling prophecy because the fast kid might get more reps at a young age, and the talent gap continues to grow.

In sports, we often see kids who are "old for their grade" (born right before a cutoff to be bumped up to the next grade, or held back a year by parents) excel. This likely due to the fact that one year of physical growth is significant when kids are young. Those "old for their grade" kids are bigger and stronger, and get more opportunities on the filed or court. That extra playing time results in more reps and higher confidence, which perpetuates the skill imbalance. In this example, it's easy to say that kid was "born with talent or speed," but that's not really what's going on.

With regards to your kids getting the same opportunities, I still disagree that the "training" is exactly the same. Even with the same teachers, is it safe to assume that they were in those teacher's classes at different times? Because one year, that teacher might be inspired and more willing to encourage a student, while the following year the teacher could have external factors distracting them, which trickles down to the teaching approach, which trickles down to a different experience for the students.

I agree some kids are more artistically or athletically inclined, but more so in mindset that is developed through nurture. Winning those art awards (awesome, btw!) will give that child of yours more confidence in his art, so he is more likely continue with artistic pursuits. On the flip side, that same award might subconsciously push your other children to avoid art in pursuit of something else they can shine at.

Again, just my two cents. I don't think we can objectively prove one way or the other.

Genetics are real. I really can't respond any other way to this post as there is so much wrong with it, even though I think it comes from a really good place.

Originally Posted by blakejamieson

Yes, I agree with above about an autistic savant, but also stand by my previous example. There is plenty of data to back it up. For starters, I recommend "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell.

Gladwell is great!

[mwheeler27]

Originally Posted by blakejamieson

Yes, I agree with above about an autistic savant, but also stand by my previous example. There is plenty of data to back it up. For starters, I recommend "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell.

I’ve already read Outliers. I knew you were referencing it above.

You don’t truly believe everybody is born with an equal ability to run equally fast, do you?

[Silas Barnaby]

Originally Posted by blakejamieson

Winning those art awards (awesome, btw!) will give that child of yours more confidence in his art, so he is more likely continue with artistic pursuits.

Why couldn't the art award winner be a 'she'?

[vermonty]

I think it's fair to say that there is some role that good fortune--or bad fortune--has in "shaping our destinies."

But I think it's also reasonable to presume that some individuals have a natural propensity to have an easier time excelling in certain areas, i.e. pretty sure Shaq had less difficulty learning to dunk a basketball than I would under even the most supportive and encouraging training program.

I wonder, do the motivation/interest/priorities to persevere in a given area constitute a "gift" in their own right?

[RyanSwinger]

This thread is pure chaos and I love it!

If we dont get print runs tomorrow this may turn into Lord of the Flies.

[Bruvydsb]

Originally Posted by RyanSwinger

Shipping was pretty quick. Think I got my 10 pack of Jeter Saladeen within 10 business days.

The next run on P2020 will be once current cards selling at 3-4k arrive in hand and sales of those cards start increasing to $25-$30-$35 on ebay. People will then want to hop back in. The bottom is VERY close no doubt. A great time for collectors and speculators both.

I agree with this.

Looking forward to those 3-4K pr cards getting in hand and breaking the trend of card values decreasing when they go live.

[ThoseBackPages]

as long as cards i want to buy are released tomorrow, i will buy them

[Oliroller]

Efdot and JK5 tomorrow?

[cardsforever]

Just received shipping notification of my Griffey card #127.