Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[CMpunk13]

When you start calling baseball cards an asset, stupid stuff like this and hos happen. Scumbags!

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by CMpunk13

When you start calling baseball cards an asset, stupid stuff like this and hos happen. Scumbags!

ECW! ECW! ECW!

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by chezball

You didn't think a response from pwcc was going to make things better for them, did you?

I actually did, and I am surprised to:

1. See them post this so soon.
2. See them present something incomplete.

They are the card business experts though. Who am I to judge?

[TarjetasBéisbol]

Wow, I have no idea what to even say about this. I wonder how much business they have lost and how many of their buyers have asked for a refund?

[LSUNatChamps]

Besides calling out all of the trimmed cards, etc., everyone needs to unsubscribe from PWCC and PSA mailing lists and not patronize either business in any way going forward. Short of legal consequences, this is the best way to send a message.

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by LSUNatChamps

Besides calling out all of the trimmed cards, etc., everyone needs to unsubscribe from PWCC and PSA mailing lists and not patronize either business in any way going forward. Short of legal consequences, this is the best way to send a message.

Ding! Ding! Totally agreed. That thread from 2005 shows that PSA has not changed their business practices. Seems every couple years a big scandal breaks out involving PSA of some sort. They delete threads and play spin. Life goes on and they make more money. Probably too many big money guys with a lot of cash tied up in PSA holders to not play along.

[daveyc1]

Conservation is an act in attempt to stop further damage from an item. Like de acidifying a piece of paper/cardboard to keep it from degrading. PWCC is not talking about conservation, but two types of restoration.

[rcmb3220]

Originally Posted by daveyc1

Conservation is an act in attempt to stop further damage from an item. Like deck acidifying a piece of paper/cardboard. PWCC is not talking about conservation, but two types of restoration.

Agree. It's pretty clear they are actively engaged in "conservation" whether they are "conserving" their own inventory or advising clients on the hows and whys of "conservation".

I've always known that this hobby attracts a higher % of scum than average. I've taken it with a grain of salt. But this whole things has me disillusioned. And it's not like I'd ever buy these higher value cards.

For once, I'd like some big name in the hobby act as a gatekeeper instead of talking about pretending to be one all while working toward being one of its biggest villains.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by rcmb3220

Agree. It's pretty clear they are actively engaged in "conservation" whether they are "conserving" their own inventory or advising clients on the hows and whys of "conservation".

I've always known that this hobby attracts a higher % of scum than average. I've taken it with a grain of salt. But this whole things has me disillusioned. And it's not like I'd ever buy these higher value cards.

For once, I'd like some big name in the hobby act as a gatekeeper instead of talking about pretending to be one all while working toward being one of its biggest villains.

Blowout may not actively be doing so, but I commend them for allowing these threads to continue. You can't have these discussions elsewhere.

[TheRealDeal]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Blowout may not actively be doing so, but I commend them for allowing these threads to continue. You can't have these discussions elsewhere.

Very true. Do this on Net 54 and Leon fabricates a reason to ban you. Can’t harm those advertisers.

[JrFinest]

Originally Posted by TheRealDeal

Very true. Do this on Net 54 and Leon fabricates a reason to ban you. Can’t harm those advertisers.

That and the fact he's likely sunk quite a bit of money into the companies cards as well. A lot of undiscovered trimmed vintage floating out there in slabs.

[RYBOWSKI97]

conservation shouldnt apply to sportscards unless they are being sold as restored right in the description. pwcc, seriously i would just stop posting in here.

[WhiteSoxJosh]

I sure hope they have good attorneys.

[Archangel1775]

I take it all the hate and discontent is directed towards soaking a card to remove stains? I really dont see any difference than removing wax or gum stains from a card. Whether someone uses their finger, pantyhose, eraser or water. I've actually used a cloth and water to wipe away some gum particles on the surface of a card. I never imagined I should have filled the sink with water and left it in there overnight.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by TheRealDeal

Very true. Do this on Net 54 and Leon fabricates a reason to ban you. Can’t harm those advertisers.

That isn't exactly fair. There are many posts highly critical of PWCC on 54. Carry on.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by WhiteSoxJosh

I sure hope they have good attorneys.

If they were advised to post this by attorneys, I would say not.

[pspa123]

Vocabulary problem for sure. Conservation is intended to preserve an item from further deterioration. Few or none of the supposedly acceptable things they list are so intended. Man, if you're going to go to all that trouble, use words properly.

[1989FF]

It's all in the name.

Professionally
Whitened
Cut
Cards

[Rooftop]

Originally Posted by PWCC Marketplace

PWCC will soon publish our Marketplace Tenets, which describes the rules of engagement for transacting on the PWCC Marketplace and the commitments and responsibilities of all parties involved. Among other things, the Tenets will describe what cards we will allow to be sold on our marketplace and will draw a distinction between cards that were altered and cards that were conserved. Cards that are proven altered through physical evidence are not allowed to be sold, while cards that are proven conserved are indeed allowed to be sold.

In an effort to define an enforceable PWCC policy, we want to open up the dialogue with the community to allow for feedback before our official Tenets are published. Acceptable forms of conservation exist in all collectibles markets, ranging from coins to comics to fine art, and we feel it’s time the trading card market better defines a stance on what is acceptable conservation. The following is a draft of our current understanding of majority opinion, and this is subject to edit.

Conservation. PWCC believes conservation, as defined, to be healthy, sustainable, and supportive of the marketplace and the investors and collectors who participate. Assets that have been conserved can be sold on the PWCC Marketplace.

Conservation is defined as an act which returns an asset closer to its as-manufactured condition but does not otherwise enhance or artificially distance the asset beyond the as-manufactured status. An act which removes a foreign substance from an asset and does so in a way which doesn’t otherwise alter the condition of the as-manufactured product is usually considered acceptable and generally renders the asset worthy of professional grading. Dirt, glue, writing, wax and other foreign substances can be removed from an asset and the result is considered acceptable conservation, so long as the professional Third-Party Authenticators agree the asset is void of unnatural aspects induced as a result of the conservation. Lying flat a warped or bent region of a card (i.e. in a screw down holder), so long as it doesn’t disrupt the card’s natural properties, is generally considered acceptable conservation, whereas pressing a card and thereby changing its as-manufactured properties (i.e. thickness of the card stock) is generally not acceptable and may render the card altered. Laying flat a nonplanar corner, crease, or edge, so long as the card stock is not pressed to a state of artificial thickness, is typically acceptable so long as no other unnatural change to the as-manufactured card stock is discernable.

Alteration. PWCC believes alteration, as defined, is damaging to the marketplace. Altered assets cannot be sold on the PWCC Marketplace unless this detail is disclosed during the sale.

Alteration includes any act which meaningfully renders a change to the as-manufactured qualities of the asset, outside of the normal wear and deterioration inherent to circulation. Any purposeful material addition or material removal to or from the as-manufactured asset, outside of normal wear or environmental degradation, is generally considered an alteration. Trimming, recoloring, autograph retracing, rebuilding of corners or other surfaces, swapping of patches, or any other action which distances a card from its as-manufactured attributes is considered an act of alteration. Altered cards which are stated as such in a transparent nature are permitted for sale on the Marketplace.

Alteration is only ever officially determined by the presence of physical evidence. Speculation is not considered evidence. Evidence of alteration can be determined in two different ways; either in technical review by a reputable Third-Party Authenticator, or when digital content asserts beyond a reasonable doubt that an alteration took place (i.e. before and after photos of trimming, recoloring, etc).

Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. The best way to share feedback is to send me a direct email at betsy@pwccmarketplace.com. I will come back onto this thread to gather feedback periodically, but won't be responding to comments actively. Thank you!

All that to justify selling a 4.5 Mantle? Hope it was worth it.

[13goyankees13]

i.e. alteration is only alteration if a TPA catches it?

If the marketplace supports conservation, test it out. For the next month, require all sellers to note how their cards were conserved. See if there is a significant difference in pricing between conserved and non-conserved cards. If the market truly supports it, sellers will have no issue with this and these disclosures won't impact selling prices.

[ninjacookies]

The worst part of this is that PWCC is in bed with Ebay, and have been for ages. Ebay will continue to support them, feature them everywhere...and ignore their questionable and downright shady practices.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Vocabulary problem for sure. Conservation is intended to preserve an item from further deterioration. Few or none of the supposedly acceptable things they list are so intended. Man, if you're going to go to all that trouble, use words properly.

Yes, everyone just needs to remember that shellac always conserves, preserves and protects best.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by 13goyankees13

i.e. alteration is only alteration if a TPA catches it?

If the marketplace supports conservation, test it out. For the next month, require all sellers to note how their cards were conserved. See if there is a significant difference in pricing between conserved and non-conserved cards. If the market truly supports it, sellers will have no issue with this and these disclosures won't impact selling prices.

If only it were this easy.

[cking]

I have a question for PWCC if they are reading.

What makes you think you are the one who defines what is or is not an alteration for the rest of us?

That is your opinion. Nothing more. If a customer buys a card from you and then finds out afterwards that some 'conservation' has been performed on it and they dont agree with your definition or your opinion then guess what. You will be refunding them.

Your opinion of what is and is not alteration means nothing to Ebay and Paypal. I can promise you that.

99% of this goes away for you if you just put that information in the listing. You know that,right?

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by cking

I have a question for PWCC if they are reading.

What makes you think you are the one who defines what is or is not an alteration for the rest of us?

That is your opinion. Nothing more. If a customer buys a card from you and then finds out afterwards that some 'conservation' has been performed on it and they dont agree with your definition or your opinion then guess what. You will be refunding them.

Your opinion of what is and is not alteration means nothing to Ebay and Paypal. I can promise you that.

99% of this goes away for you if you just put that information in the listing. You know that,right?

I’m thinking PWCC already strategically positioned itself so that it would benefit most if the hobby were to come around to the definition PWCC wants everyone to use.

Knowing this hobby, I’m waiting for a troll army to magically appear to help set a definition that coincides with that position.