Fanatic's impact on football card market - Page 2

rmw10 · 08-19-2021, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seahawks fan

The amount of products would stay the same amount just divided by 4 companies so the players would still sign the same amount of cards/stickers and as for the photos have 1 shoot then divy up the photos between the 4 companies. This isn't a snail mail era ...these things can be done just as fast with multiple companies. There really isn't a valid excuse for potentially harming the long term value of the hobby and making your fan base angry. Again it is only streamlined to make it easier for them which is laziness.

Right now cards are at their hottest point since 1990. All you see are companies jumping on the bandwagon to make a quick buck and no one looking out for the hobby as a whole or it's long time companies/collectors. All it's going to take are a few of these hot rookies that the new covid wave of collectors put way too much money into, to fizzle out/get injured or a different item takes over the sneakerheads attention and you will lose half of the flash in the pan collectors. In the meantime we sacrifice companies that have been a staple for 70 years because of it. Noice

The answer you're looking for is money. Fanatics just offered to pay more than Topps, Panini, and UD combined could ever dream of. Plus Fanatics already has an in with the NFL and NFLPA. It was a no brainer for them. Sucks for us but you're dumb if you don't take that profit. They don't care about the factors that we do as collectors. Will that be their undoing? Maybe. Maybe not. But the money was there.

rmw10 · 08-19-2021, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

I mean...

I buy LESS cards the more they produce. The more there is, the less I think about sets or longevity or legacy and the more I just buy the highest end cards of each Niner rookie and call it a day.

There IS a saturation point. It does exist. Especially if these prices don't hold.

I know I'll get roasted by some, but everything about the last two years screams "bubble" to me. Influencers pumping, Wall Street intervening in markets they don't really know, lots of "new blood" collectors who's long term interest has yet to be determined. Sounds "stable". Things are just violently swinging all over. If you can profit now - awesome, but everyone else should be careful.

Hell I could dig up bubble threads where average Joe newby was telling me for sure all prices (ALL) would stay high. Yeah, yeah, Kobe Black Refractor, Honus Wagner, or LeBron Exquisite RPA... but that's different than buying mid-level product at crazy prices. It is cardboard for the most part.

If Fanatics increases sets I'll have even less overall interest.

Is anyone legit excited by Score or Prestige? Or most of the brands?

I don't think longevity is the issue as much as it's just an over saturation in general. Sure, some sets have staying power, but everything else just kind of melds together. Every set it the same concept - here are these 40 rookies with an RPA, here are these 100 rookies with a base RC, here's a jersey card.

Just from seeing your other posts, I'm not even sure a more expansive checklist does it. It's just bland at this point and if you keep increasing those numbers, you just have the same thing over and over again... just a different card stock and finish and all of that. If they want to survive, they need to get creative and hit multiple parts of the market from low end to high end.

ninjacookies · 08-19-2021, 09:02 PM

Going to be interesting.

Old school UD/Exquisite/TC/BC only translated in basketball.

For the most part, fb clectors don't gravitate to those eras, and don't pay ridiculous premiums unless it's a top tier player.

Most of the Panini fb stuff from this era may suffer the same fate.

49erRCCollector · 08-19-2021, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmw10

I don't think longevity is the issue as much as it's just an over saturation in general. Sure, some sets have staying power, but everything else just kind of melds together. Every set it the same concept - here are these 40 rookies with an RPA, here are these 100 rookies with a base RC, here's a jersey card.

Just from seeing your other posts, I'm not even sure a more expansive checklist does it. It's just bland at this point and if you keep increasing those numbers, you just have the same thing over and over again... just a different card stock and finish and all of that. If they want to survive, they need to get creative and hit multiple parts of the market from low end to high end.

Well put. You’re right on.

regularp · 08-19-2021, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Going to be interesting.

Old school UD/Exquisite/TC/BC only translated in basketball.

For the most part, fb clectors don't gravitate to those eras, and don't pay ridiculous premiums unless it's a top tier player.

Most of the Panini fb stuff from this era may suffer the same fate.

I think a lot of that has to do with the lack of stars people care/cared about compared to basketball. There's super fans of just about anybody you can think of on this very board from Byron Scott to the Holy Trinity when it comes to basketball.

So many players in the NBA have lifelong fans from top-to-bottom while the NFL just has a handful people care about and defensive players are basically a non-entity besides some rookie cards. Look at the price difference between Jason Williams cards compared to Devin Hester.

tjforce · 08-19-2021, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Going to be interesting.

Old school UD/Exquisite/TC/BC only translated in basketball.

For the most part, fb clectors don't gravitate to those eras, and don't pay ridiculous premiums unless it's a top tier player.

Most of the Panini fb stuff from this era may suffer the same fate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by regularp

I think a lot of that has to do with the lack of stars people care/cared about compared to basketball. There's super fans of just about anybody you can think of on this very board from Byron Scott to the Holy Trinity when it comes to basketball.

So many players in the NBA have lifelong fans from top-to-bottom while the NFL just has a handful people care about and defensive players are basically a non-entity besides some rookie cards. Look at the price difference between Jason Williams cards compared to Devin Hester.

This is what I was about to say...

Brady Bowman Chrome and SP Authentic has done much better than any basketball cards from those brands.

Topps Chrome Brady's are red hot right now. Topps Chrome Aaron Rodgers stuff is strong as well.

ninjacookies · 08-19-2021, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regularp

I think a lot of that has to do with the lack of stars people care/cared about compared to basketball. There's super fans of just about anybody you can think of on this very board from Byron Scott to the Holy Trinity when it comes to basketball.

So many players in the NBA have lifelong fans from top-to-bottom while the NFL just has a handful people care about and defensive players are basically a non-entity besides some rookie cards. Look at the price difference between Jason Williams cards compared to Devin Hester.

That could have something to do with it. But there's Exquisite GU mem/autos of legends that look like welfare checks compared to their basketball counterparts. It's mind boggling. And these are some of the best Exquisite designs ever created.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjforce

This is what I was about to say...

Brady Bowman Chrome and SP Authentic has done much better than any basketball cards from those brands.

Topps Chrome Brady's are red hot right now. Topps Chrome Aaron Rodgers stuff is strong as well.

Yup. Outside of those those guys, it's slim pickings though. Again, I can't really explain the discrepancy between the FB and BKB UD/Fleer markets. About the only thing I can come up with is that asian collectors really identified with those brands from the jump, whereas they didn't quite have that exposure to fb offerings nor followed the sport closely until the recent market explosion. Also, the exclusive Jordan/Lebron partnerships may have played a large part.

Whereas basically all the golden era fb equisite players all still have GU autos still being created.

JWBlue · 08-19-2021, 11:21 PM

Are we going to see unlicensed Panini cards?

tnvolfan16 · 08-19-2021, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWBlue

Are we going to see unlicensed Panini cards?

i would assume if fanatics gets the players association license, then panini could not use current players names or images. the same reason leaf only has retired players who are no longer in the PA. that would be the route panini would have to go, i would think

ninjacookies · 08-20-2021, 12:02 AM

Panini won't care nearly as much as BO does.

Sportscards comprised such a small microfraction of their annual revenue, contrary to belief. Probably why they didn't fight Fanatics for the renewal.

As long as they got their international stickers, they're gucci.

WWECollector316 · 08-20-2021, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Panini won't care nearly as much as BO does.

Sportscards comprised such a small microfraction of their annual revenue, contrary to belief. Probably why they didn't fight Fanatics for the renewal.

As long as they got their international stickers, they're gucci.

The Panini Group wont have much impact here, even with the recent boom. Panini America will see a huge challenge.

Panini's licenses will settle in at Soccer, WWE, UFC, WNBA, NASCAR and the few others they have. Losing NFL and NBA is a big deal compared to the sizes of those licenses.

All in all, they could end up being relevant outside of their losses in the trading card game, especially if they focus internationally on the licenses they will end up with.

ninjacookies · 08-20-2021, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWECollector316

The Panini Group wont have much impact here, even with the recent boom. Panini America will see a huge challenge.

Panini's licenses will settle in at Soccer, WWE, UFC, WNBA, NASCAR and the few others they have. Losing NFL and NBA is a big deal compared to the sizes of those licenses.

All in all, they could end up being relevant outside of their losses in the trading card game, especially if they focus internationally on the licenses they will end up with.

Agree, Panini America will feel the brunt of this. They may even be axed by HQ in Italy.

Just for perspective, Panini Group's annual sticker intake back in 2018 was estimated around 1b usd.

Panini America was believed to have raked in 25 million LAST year.

It was a fun experiment, but probably more of a dice role by the execs more than anything. I'd imagine it's a lot easier for them to continue dominating the sticker market due to the licensing structures and general lack of interest from American companies and consumers.

Hackler set to sell used BMW's in Austin by 2026.

Paderborn1907 · 08-20-2021, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Agree, Panini America will feel the brunt of this. They may even be axed by HQ in Italy.

Just for perspective, Panini Group's annual sticker intake back in 2018 was estimated around 1b usd.

Panini America was believed to have raked in 25 million LAST year.

It was a fun experiment, but probably more of a dice role by the execs more than anything. I'd imagine it's a lot easier for them to continue dominating the sticker market due to the licensing structures and general lack of interest from American companies and consumers.

Hackler set to sell used BMW's in Austin by 2026.

The Brands like Prizm, Select, NT, Flawless etc. could be very interesting though for Fanatics.

ninjacookies · 08-20-2021, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paderborn1907

The Brands like Prizm, Select, NT, Flawless etc. could be very interesting though for Fanatics.

I mean, they've basically been just selling rebranded Prizm and Optic exclusives for the past few years. If they can acquire the rights to Panini's designs and monikers it'll be PnP. The only question that looms is how they'll be handling designs going forward. I believe Panini has hired at least one former UD designer to join their team. Could see the same thing on Fanatics' end grabbing the mutinous Poopnini photoshoppers.

regularp · 08-20-2021, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

That could have something to do with it. But there's Exquisite GU mem/autos of legends that look like welfare checks compared to their basketball counterparts. It's mind boggling. And these are some of the best Exquisite designs ever created.

Yup. Outside of those those guys, it's slim pickings though. Again, I can't really explain the discrepancy between the FB and BKB UD/Fleer markets. About the only thing I can come up with is that asian collectors really identified with those brands from the jump, whereas they didn't quite have that exposure to fb offerings nor followed the sport closely until the recent market explosion. Also, the exclusive Jordan/Lebron partnerships may have played a large part.

Whereas basically all the golden era fb equisite players all still have GU autos still being created.

Wasn't the Exquisite design trash in football? They didn't have Limited Logos either, right?

Just look at Chris Paul's RPA vs. Aaron Rodgers:

The Rodgers is a cut auto.

ninjacookies · 08-20-2021, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regularp

Wasn't the Exquisite design trash in football? They didn't have Limited Logos either, right?

Just look at Chris Paul's RPA vs. Aaron Rodgers:

The Rodgers is a cut auto.

Definitely one of the most forgettable years of Exquisite lol.

But just imagine being able to purchase ANY Exq. Jordan quad GU jsy for under a G.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/33410315850...p2047675.l2557

tjforce · 08-20-2021, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regularp

Wasn't the Exquisite design trash in football? They didn't have Limited Logos either, right?

Just look at Chris Paul's RPA vs. Aaron Rodgers:

The Rodgers is a cut auto.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Definitely one of the most forgettable years of Exquisite lol.

But just imagine being able to purchase ANY Exq. Jordan quad GU jsy for under a G.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/33410315850...p2047675.l2557

Yes.. it was much cheaper quality...

They did things like skip out on etched foil for plain printed designs. Also, to the best of my knowledge, Tom Brady never had an Exquisite auto.

I'm not saying it was a BAD product, but it certainly was not what is was in basketball.

Zauron · 08-20-2021, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paderborn1907

The Brands like Prizm, Select, NT, Flawless etc. could be very interesting though for Fanatics.

I'm really interested if Fanatics wants to make their own cards going forward, or see if Panini/Topps are interested in being leased out for cards.

This is pretty big for the hobby. Obviously more talk in the baseball section, but if it's true they will hold the stake in NFL and NBA, that will affect these markets too.

rmw10 · 08-20-2021, 07:52 AM

Saw an article this morning that the Panini has the NFLPA through 2026. Do we know if they hold the NFL logos until then as well? If so, that’s still a long time of them running the presses and clearing out inventory.

hugh · 08-20-2021, 08:34 AM

I have no idea what you're talking about

JeremyNick · 08-20-2021, 08:35 AM

To my knowledge the NFLPA and NFL have signed no deal with a fanatics yet, it’s just been rumors, correct?

Grid · 08-20-2021, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seahawks fan

I'm curious why the league just wants 1 buyer. I realize 1 buyer will shell out a ton to be the onlyone but I'm sure they could make the same amount if they split it between fanatics, panini, Topps, and upperdeck. Then designs don't get stale, staple brands stay around, competition breeds innovation, and collectors would be happier.

If I'm the league and I see Topps has been making Baseball cards for 70s years why would you want to end that when you can just add to it... looks like you don't care about your fans/base at all

You answered your own question. If they would make the same between 5 partners, as they do just 1, why would they want to have to deal/organize/approve/cash checks from 5, when they same money can come from just 1.

That is just what leagues do. And that is why you see "Official" sponsors for all of them. The Official Soft drink of the NFL. The Official Hotel brand of MLB ETC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seahawks fan

The amount of products would stay the same amount just divided by 4 companies so the players would still sign the same amount of cards/stickers and as for the photos have 1 shoot then divy up the photos between the 4 companies. This isn't a snail mail era ...these things can be done just as fast with multiple companies. There really isn't a valid excuse for potentially harming the long term value of the hobby and making your fan base angry. Again it is only streamlined to make it easier for them which is laziness.

All just speculation on your end. Who is to say, if they brought in multiple partners to make cards, that each and every competing company would want to do everything exactly the same.

Company A might want very few autos, and focus brands on parallels. Company B might want to only make 12 brand releases per year ETC.

Remember, the deal Panini cut with the NFL was for a minimum amount of brands produced. Not a maximum.

Grid · 08-20-2021, 08:57 AM

Who says any of this is bad for us? Topps tried going public, on the heels of a great 2020, to raise capital. Obviously this Fanatics deal made them pull back on that.

Still, Topps had sales of nearly $300MIL in physical trading cards last year. Of their total $567MIL in combined sales last year, over a third of that was candy (Bazooka, Ring Pops ETC).

They still have a lucrative gift card selling division ($25MIL last year in sales). And their digital sales were almost $30MIL.

Point is, if they cant make MLB cards like they used to, they could very easily spin off their hard asset division for cash, and focus on their other offerings.

Who is to say Fanatics doesn't just buy Topps out of that segment? Topps is looking for cash flow, and Fanatics needs market brands. You buy Topps, you get their licenses as well, which includes Fleer. Fleer could make a come back to NFL cards.

Panini is already trying to sell itself. I am sure Panini America (the arm that makes our cards) could be had for little. That would now give Fanatics every valuable brand of cards, across all 3 major US sports.

Fleer, UD, Score, Pacific, Topps, Bowman, Donruss and every flagship, could once more make cards for each sport.

Whos to say, if this all happens, that this wouldn't be the best thing to ever happen to cards?

It goes without saying, the value of Topps & Panini NA is a LOT less without their ability to make these sports cards. And with that, any halfway decent offer from Fanatics would be heard for their brands/staff/connections and content.

Topps can keep and even add to its digital portfolio with a deal from Fanatics, which is just a retailer and I'm sure would focus on that space. Panini gets the buyout it wants. And everyone wins.

SleeperCards · 08-20-2021, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grid

Who is to say Fanatics doesn't just buy Topps out of that segment? Topps is looking for cash flow, and Fanatics needs market brands. You buy Topps, you get their licenses as well, which includes Fleer. Fleer could make a come back to NFL cards.

I thought Upper Deck owned Fleer?

CapMarvelous · 08-20-2021, 10:45 AM

In my own perfect world following Fanatics' intention of monopolizing the sports card market, they would acquire both Topps and Panini.

So we'd get a roundabout way of still getting Prizm, Select, etc. while also returning to NFL Topps Flagship and Topps Chrome.

That would rule. But the world is an evil place and cares very little about my dreams.

08-19-2021, 09:02 PM	#28
ninjacookies Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: All the girls see the (boi)/ Look at his flips / Look at his kards / All they say is (oh boi). Posts: 56,877	Going to be interesting. Old school UD/Exquisite/TC/BC only translated in basketball. For the most part, fb clectors don't gravitate to those eras, and don't pay ridiculous premiums unless it's a top tier player. Most of the Panini fb stuff from this era may suffer the same fate. __________________ #5 world ranked Ledell Eackles superclection as recognized by Tuff Stuff junior managing editor, Barry McCaulkinner. Somethin' like a cross between Teddy Aguhob and Kaboom Mystery Packs. I got that Givenchy denim flow.

08-20-2021, 12:02 AM	#35
ninjacookies Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: All the girls see the (boi)/ Look at his flips / Look at his kards / All they say is (oh boi). Posts: 56,877	Panini won't care nearly as much as BO does. Sportscards comprised such a small microfraction of their annual revenue, contrary to belief. Probably why they didn't fight Fanatics for the renewal. As long as they got their international stickers, they're gucci. __________________ #5 world ranked Ledell Eackles superclection as recognized by Tuff Stuff junior managing editor, Barry McCaulkinner. Somethin' like a cross between Teddy Aguhob and Kaboom Mystery Packs. I got that Givenchy denim flow.

08-20-2021, 07:52 AM	#44
rmw10 Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 2,857	Saw an article this morning that the Panini has the NFLPA through 2026. Do we know if they hold the NFL logos until then as well? If so, that’s still a long time of them running the presses and clearing out inventory. __________________ Ravens All-Time Roster Project can be found here. Mostly IP autographs, but a good number of certified cards to be found as well. https://www.flickr.com/photos/76326578@N05/albums

08-20-2021, 08:34 AM	#45
hugh Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Military APO in Italy Posts: 11,160	I have no idea what you're talking about __________________ Peeve: people calling adults in their early to late 20's "kids"

08-19-2021, 11:21 PM	#33
JWBlue Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 9,605	Are we going to see unlicensed Panini cards?

08-20-2021, 08:35 AM	#46
JeremyNick Banned Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 22,801	To my knowledge the NFLPA and NFL have signed no deal with a fanatics yet, it’s just been rumors, correct?

08-20-2021, 08:57 AM	#48
Grid Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 13,010 Gridiron-Gladiators	Who says any of this is bad for us? Topps tried going public, on the heels of a great 2020, to raise capital. Obviously this Fanatics deal made them pull back on that. Still, Topps had sales of nearly $300MIL in physical trading cards last year. Of their total $567MIL in combined sales last year, over a third of that was candy (Bazooka, Ring Pops ETC). They still have a lucrative gift card selling division ($25MIL last year in sales). And their digital sales were almost $30MIL. Point is, if they cant make MLB cards like they used to, they could very easily spin off their hard asset division for cash, and focus on their other offerings. Who is to say Fanatics doesn't just buy Topps out of that segment? Topps is looking for cash flow, and Fanatics needs market brands. You buy Topps, you get their licenses as well, which includes Fleer. Fleer could make a come back to NFL cards. Panini is already trying to sell itself. I am sure Panini America (the arm that makes our cards) could be had for little. That would now give Fanatics every valuable brand of cards, across all 3 major US sports. Fleer, UD, Score, Pacific, Topps, Bowman, Donruss and every flagship, could once more make cards for each sport. Whos to say, if this all happens, that this wouldn't be the best thing to ever happen to cards? It goes without saying, the value of Topps & Panini NA is a LOT less without their ability to make these sports cards. And with that, any halfway decent offer from Fanatics would be heard for their brands/staff/connections and content. Topps can keep and even add to its digital portfolio with a deal from Fanatics, which is just a retailer and I'm sure would focus on that space. Panini gets the buyout it wants. And everyone wins.

08-20-2021, 10:45 AM	#50
CapMarvelous Member Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 291	In my own perfect world following Fanatics' intention of monopolizing the sports card market, they would acquire both Topps and Panini. So we'd get a roundabout way of still getting Prizm, Select, etc. while also returning to NFL Topps Flagship and Topps Chrome. That would rule. But the world is an evil place and cares very little about my dreams.