PWCC monthly auction w/extended bidding goes live Thurs

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by pip

Well, then you're a fool.

Lol.... Here ya go, buddy... Read thought this and tell me how foolish I am with buys and sells...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1211039


Maybe I'll even update it here for ya.

[pip]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Lol.... Here ya go, buddy... Read thought this and tell me how foolish I am with buys and sells...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1211039


Maybe I'll even update it here for ya.

If you purchased a sizable part of your collection from probstein, Heritage, and PWCC, there is a very good chance you would have paid less without the house employing shill bidding. 10% of $1 million is still a tidy sum.

Read through the Mastro/Mastronet shill bidding records if you don't believe me. And that was only the tip of the iceberg compared to what happens now.

[GOATMJ]

Originally Posted by 90skid

So let me get this straight, if I purchase a card or win an auction from PWCC and choose to keep it in 'my' / 'their' vault....there's no sales tax because it stays in their physical possession in the state.

What happens then if a few days later (or whatever time period) I decide to tell them to send it to me and not keep it in their vault anymore. Do I get to skip on taxes? Just asking, lol.

I believe you pay taxes and shipping when they send it to you.

[minnesotachill]

No taxes when they ship

[bmf]

Originally Posted by GOATMJ

I believe you pay taxes and shipping when they send it to you.

Nope. Just shipping

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by regularp

Most of this board won't admit it but there's been a hole in the hobby without their monthly auctions and nobody else has filled that void.

Very true.

I’d much rather see what’s in the PWCC monthly auction than what SickFlipz69420 has to offer.

Originally Posted by tjforce

Lol.... Here ya go, buddy... Read thought this and tell me how foolish I am with buys and sells...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1211039


Maybe I'll even update it here for ya.

We’re supposed to believe a 3 year old thread…

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Because honestly, I don't care about shill bidding.

I'm going to bid what I am comfortable paying. And if I win it, then it'll be nice to know that I will get the card in a timely fashion and it'll be protected when it ships.

Originally Posted by pip

If you purchased a sizable part of your collection from probstein, Heritage, and PWCC, there is a very good chance you would have paid less without the house employing shill bidding. 10% of $1 million is still a tidy sum.

I won a Jordan Jambalaya BGS 9.5 for 14K in a Probstein auction in 2019 when they were selling for around 12K. It was likely shill bid and I knew that I overpaid 10-15% but I was fine with that. It is a card that I really wanted and I did not mind paying a premium. The same card in similar grade would fetch close to 100K today. This is just one example.

Is Shill bidding bad? Yes. Does it happen only at PWCC? No. I bet it happens everywhere directly or indirectly. If you really care about business ethics, you should keep your money at home instead of using banks, investing in stock market and collectibles because corruption and shadiness is everywhere.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by jlawje

If everyone is scared off there is going to be some terrific buying opportunities.

I don’t know that people will be scared off. But this is 40k+ cards. It’s a huge auction. And the extended bidding will be challenging. I’ve looked through a few players and already have four dozen items I am going to bid on.

[pip]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

I won a Jordan Jambalaya BGS 9.5 for 14K in a Probstein auction in 2019 when they were selling for around 12K. It was likely shill bid and I knew that I overpaid 10-15% but I was fine with that. It is a card that I really wanted and I did not mind paying a premium. The same card in similar grade would fetch close to 100K today. This is just one example.

This isn’t an argument in your favor. The money you would have "saved" could have been spent on other similar cards that also appreciated in value. Shill bidding is stealing. Money was taken out of your pocket.

Is Shill bidding bad? Yes. Does it happen only at PWCC? No. I bet it happens everywhere directly or indirectly. If you really care about business ethics, you should keep your money at home instead of using banks, investing in stock market and collectibles because corruption and shadiness is everywhere.

So if something that is illegal in most states happens "everywhere" that makes it acceptable or tolerable? How?

[JeremyNick]

Extended bidding is a great idea to keep the frenzy going. Squeeze every last dime out the adrenaline fueled rush to get that card.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by pip

This isn’t an argument in your favor. The money you would have "saved" could have been spent on other similar cards that also appreciated in value. Shill bidding is stealing. Money was taken out of your pocket.

So if something that is illegal in most states happens "everywhere" that makes it acceptable or tolerable? How?

I agree with you for the most part, except this is kinda impossible to tell, because whether shill bid or not, many bids at the end of an auction don't go off if they come out under the next highest bid... This is maybe 4-5x more common for me than coming in as 2nd highest bidder on an item I want and am bidding on at the last minute.

also, I stopped sending my cards to pwcc auction because the prices I was getting were too low, lol. Last batch I sent would've been over a year ago I guess and I got 50-70% of what they were selling for when I submitted. I guess I suck at timing them when factoring in waiting for auction submissions *shrugs* - all that to say that while I don't trust pwcc 100%, I trust psa/ebay even less.... all seem to be necessary evils at this point - and they're less evil than whoever got your $$ the last time you filled up your tank of gas.

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by pip

This isn’t an argument in your favor. The money you would have "saved" could have been spent on other similar cards that also appreciated in value. Shill bidding is stealing. Money was taken out of your pocket.
So if something that is illegal in most states happens "everywhere" that makes it acceptable or tolerable? How?

You are not getting my point. Have you purchased cards at an auction? If yes, money was taken out of your pocket as well. You are just oblivious to it or do not want to accept the fact! Shill bidding and price manipulation invariably happens everywhere in the collectible market, either directly or indirectly because it is not regulated. There is a good chance that I overpaid on at least 50% of the cards that I have purchased because their prices were manipulated. One should not be in the collectible market at all if he or she is concerned about shill bidding. That does not mean I support shill bidding. I am just more realistic in my approach. Only way to avoid shill bidding imo is to avoid auctions and use BIN/BO listings but even those listings use comps from auctions which are manipulated.

[KhalDrogo]

[2010GBPackers]

Pip and company when they see a new thread with PWCC in the title:

[sportscardpete]

Love em or hate em, that is a STACKED auction.

[pip]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

You are not getting my point. Have you purchased cards at an auction? If yes, money was taken out of your pocket as well. You are just oblivious to it or do not want to accept the fact! Shill bidding and price manipulation invariably happens everywhere in the collectible market, either directly or indirectly because it is not regulated. There is a good chance that I overpaid on at least 50% of the cards that I have purchased because their prices were manipulated. One should not be in the collectible market at all if he or she is concerned about shill bidding. That does not mean I support shill bidding. I am just more realistic in my approach. Only way to avoid shill bidding imo is to avoid auctions and use BIN/BO listings but even those listings use comps from auctions which are manipulated.

Sorry. I don't buy the "it's everywhere, we should accept it," point of view. The first step toward meaningful change comes with avoiding those businesses that are the most prodigious shill bidders--PWCC. There are auctions and sellers out there that do not engage in shill bidding. Do the proper research. Cultivate the right business relationships. Don't be lazy and accept the status quo.

[notfast]

So no buyers premium in the monthly auction?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pip

Sorry. I don't buy the "it's everywhere, we should accept it," point of view. The first step toward meaningful change comes with avoiding those businesses that are the most prodigious shill bidders--PWCC. There are auctions and sellers out there that do not engage in shill bidding. Do the proper research. Cultivate the right business relationships. Don't be lazy and accept the status quo.

Which auction houses?

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by pip

Sorry. I don't buy the "it's everywhere, we should accept it," point of view. The first step toward meaningful change comes with avoiding those businesses that are the most prodigious shill bidders--PWCC. There are auctions and sellers out there that do not engage in shill bidding. Do the proper research. Cultivate the right business relationships. Don't be lazy and accept the status quo.

I did not say everyone has to accept it. Just because you do not hear or read about it does not mean it is not happening. If you want to be oblivious and do not want to accept it, that is your choice. You are free to express your opinion and so shall others. You can continue with you holier-than-thou approach and I am not going to respond. Hypocrisy is pretty rampant here anyways.

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Which auction houses?

My thoughts exactly

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by pip

Sorry. I don't buy the "it's everywhere, we should accept it," point of view. The first step toward meaningful change comes with avoiding those businesses that are the most prodigious shill bidders--PWCC. There are auctions and sellers out there that do not engage in shill bidding. Do the proper research. Cultivate the right business relationships. Don't be lazy and accept the status quo.

No. There aren’t.

Any meaningful card listed has a high chance at being manipulated by SOMEBODY with a vested interest.

If I list a meaningful card at auction, I’m pretty positive a few of the bids will come from others trying to bump the price.

It’s the nature of the industry.

[Dame]

I was outbid on 3 items when PWCC was still on EBAY. 2/3 of those items are back in their monthly auction format lol, so yeah, it was probably shilled, but I don't care much.


I will most likely overpay this time but I know I won't see them back in the market again for a LOOOONG time.


So be it.

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

No. There aren’t.

Any meaningful card listed has a high chance at being manipulated by SOMEBODY with a vested interest.

If I list a meaningful card at auction, I’m pretty positive a few of the bids will come from others trying to bump the price.

It’s the nature of the industry.

Yes, either directly or indirectly by the consignor or by someone else who owns that particular card and has a vested interest in propping up the prices.

[pip]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

You can continue with you holier-than-thou approach and I am not going to respond. Hypocrisy is pretty rampant here anyways.

I rarely sell anything and when I do, it's a private transaction. So no, I don't shill bid. Never have.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by pip

I rarely sell anything and when I do, it's a private transaction. So no, I don't shill bid. Never have.

You’re basing your price on other copies that have sold, which were.

So indirectly, yes you are. At the very least, your prices are influenced by it.

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by pip

I rarely sell anything and when I do, it's a private transaction. So no, I don't shill bid. Never have.

One should not be in the collectible market at all if he or she is concerned about shill bidding or price manipulation and its implications. When you are selling, you are using comps from manipulated prices in a way unless you are selling your cards at 10-20% discount to recent comps.

Originally Posted by pcptrade

You are not getting my point. Have you purchased cards at an auction? If yes, money was taken out of your pocket as well. You are just oblivious to it or do not want to accept the fact! One should not be in the collectible market at all if he or she is concerned about shill bidding. That does not mean I support shill bidding. I am just more realistic in my approach. Only way to avoid shill bidding imo is to avoid auctions and use BIN/BO listings but even those listings use comps from auctions which are manipulated.