PSA Lost My $25K Cards, They’re now on eBay — PSA offers 50% MV and wants NDA

[inaka]

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

Forgive my ignorance - Is Brady's shop a middle man? I see they are an "official partner" - but can the shop verify they got the cards to PSA, have tracking, anything?

Or technically being a partner makes it the same as "dropping off with PSA"?

It depends on the event/submission. For example, if this was the December 7th PSA event at the CardVault in Foxborough, MA, then that's a PSA drop-off event where you're handing your cards directly to PSA employees, and you start your order online as you would for any individual PSA submission, but just drop off the cards direct to PSA employees =instead of mailing them.

But if the OP just walked into a Tom Brady CardVault on any given day, then they would be submitting cards to PSA where CardVault is the authorized dealer, aka middleman, and OP would need to fill out a Tom Brady CardVault submission form. In that case, Brady's shop a middle man and an authorized dealer and it's not direct to PSA aka the middle-man.

Since the OP mentioned marking insurance options (which aren't on CardVault forms) and being well versed in PSA submissions, it sounds like the OP did the first option which is direct to PSA employees via a PSA in-store event, but yes, that's an important distinction.

[NEOSportscards]

Originally Posted by tighejames

Thanks so much for the assistance guys. To clarify a few things:

My three orders were dropped off at CardVault by Tom Brady in Foxborough. I've graded cards for years, I'm a long time collector, and I am not new to PSA. This however was my first dropoff event.

I thought it the safest way to directly hand the cards to a PSA rep: personal contact, avoiding shipping charges, and third party middlemen.

My cards were insured too low according to my DV, that is true. But there is a huge problem with the DV process. Who is to say what the grade is until PSA determines. I'm not looking to flip so I don't mind a slower turnaround on my PC. They decide to upcharge you in the backend when your cards are graded anyway, so they always get their money. If you overvalue your cards and pay them a few hundred or thousands of dollars extra and you get a terrible grade? They don't refund. But they'll almost always upcharge.

To make it even worse, their insurance policy is the lower of the two values: your DV or the "market price." It's up to them. So if I insured these higher and put these in higher grading lanes, they still could say, sorry, it's actually not worth that.

The grading system is highly unfair. Insured values tied to declared values, which are tied to greatly multiplied grading fees, which you can't change. And all of these extra insured and grading fees don't guarantee anything: your settlement is still subjected to the whims of their approval.

Are the cards serial numbered? How are you sure they are yours? Why haven't you posted a list of what cards they are? Its hard to tell if the offer is fair with out knowing what the cards are.

[theplane]

Originally Posted by inaka

It depends on the event/submission. For example, if this was the December 7th PSA event at the CardVault in Foxborough, MA, then that's a PSA drop-off event where you're handing your cards directly to PSA employees, and you start your order online as you would for any individual PSA submission, but just drop off the cards direct to PSA employees =instead of mailing them.

But if the OP just walked into a Tom Brady CardVault on any given day, then they would be submitting cards to PSA where CardVault is the authorized dealer, aka middleman, and OP would need to fill out a Tom Brady CardVault submission form. In that case, Brady's shop a middle man and an authorized dealer and it's not direct to PSA aka the middle-man.

Since the OP mentioned marking insurance options (which aren't on CardVault forms) and being well versed in PSA submissions, it sounds like the OP did the first option which is direct to PSA employees via a PSA in-store event, but yes, that's an important distinction.

The other thing that makes it highly likely this was a PSA issue (as opposed to a CardVault issue) is that they purportedly offered a settlement. There’s no way they’d come out of the gate with a settlement (particularly a 5-figure one) if there was any possibility they weren’t the party more likely to be found liable.

[49erRCCollector]

Originally Posted by inaka

It depends on the event/submission. For example, if this was the December 7th PSA event at the CardVault in Foxborough, MA, then that's a PSA drop-off event where you're handing your cards directly to PSA employees, and you start your order online as you would for any individual PSA submission, but just drop off the cards direct to PSA employees =instead of mailing them.

But if the OP just walked into a Tom Brady CardVault on any given day, then they would be submitting cards to PSA where CardVault is the authorized dealer, aka middleman, and OP would need to fill out a Tom Brady CardVault submission form. In that case, Brady's shop a middle man and an authorized dealer and it's not direct to PSA aka the middle-man.

Since the OP mentioned marking insurance options (which aren't on CardVault forms) and being well versed in PSA submissions, it sounds like the OP did the first option which is direct to PSA employees via a PSA in-store event, but yes, that's an important distinction.

That makes sense. If this was technically "straight to PSA" then yeah, this sucks.

If this was to the shop as middle man, boy, I'd want too know what happened (or did not) in the time between when the cards were dropped off and when they hit the mail (or not).

Not a great sign that the cards ended up close to the CA PSA mothership.

If this is on PSA, it seems easier to just take the heat and pay the full freight rather than let this spiral out of control in the court of public opinion... I think...?

If someone was dumb enough to lift these out of the mail room and then post to eBay? And some are 1/1's? That's not real smart.

[SLGSports]

Their process is BS. They ask you to estimate the value of cards post-grading, but you clearly have no idea what grades they'll give you -- especially lately. There's a clear financial motivation to underestimate the expected value post-grading because you simply pay more, and you don't get anything back when your gem-mint card comes back as a 6. Then they dress it up as "Declared Value" which is not what it is. If you were honestly declaring the value, it sounds like you would have put $25K.

That said, your assessment of value for 1/1 cards is going to differ from PSA. Since they have financial incentive to minimize the value, they're going to err on that side. And with no prior sales of these cards (presumably), you'll have a difficult time proving the value is different than what PSA says.

[tighejames]

Yes, the cards verifiably made it to California, and PSA acknowledged that they did. The event was held at a third party location, but to my knowledge all of the cards were only handled directly by PSA employees.

[tighejames]

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

Forgive my ignorance - Is Brady's shop a middle man? I see they are an "official partner" - but can the shop verify they got the cards to PSA, have tracking, anything?

Or technically being a partner makes it the same as "dropping off with PSA"?

I've only ever sent to the CA office on my own.

I'm still learning how to post replies to direct messages etc on here.

Yes, the cards verifiably made it to California, and PSA acknowledged that they did. The event was held at a third party location, but to my knowledge all of the cards were only handled directly by PSA employees.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by tighejames

Thanks so much for the assistance guys. To clarify a few things:

My three orders were dropped off at CardVault by Tom Brady in Foxborough. I've graded cards for years, I'm a long time collector, and I am not new to PSA. This however was my first dropoff event.

I thought it the safest way to directly hand the cards to a PSA rep: personal contact, avoiding shipping charges, and third party middlemen.

My cards were insured too low according to my DV, that is true. But there is a huge problem with the DV process. Who is to say what the grade is until PSA determines. I'm not looking to flip so I don't mind a slower turnaround on my PC. They decide to upcharge you in the backend when your cards are graded anyway, so they always get their money. If you overvalue your cards and pay them a few hundred or thousands of dollars extra and you get a terrible grade? They don't refund. But they'll almost always upcharge.

To make it even worse, their insurance policy is the lower of the two values: your DV or the "market price." It's up to them. So if I insured these higher and put these in higher grading lanes, they still could say, sorry, it's actually not worth that.

The grading system is highly unfair. Insured values tied to declared values, which are tied to greatly multiplied grading fees, which you can't change. And all of these extra insured and grading fees don't guarantee anything: your settlement is still subjected to the whims of their approval.

Based on this update, I'm guessing the $25,000 "market value" isn't what you declared as the submission value. Is the $12,500 PSA offer what you declared, or still less?

Did PSA explain how the cards ended up with another seller/account, and why they can't recover the items? Seems like you're fighting two issues.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by tighejames

Yes, the cards verifiably made it to California, and PSA acknowledged that they did. The event was held at a third party location, but to my knowledge all of the cards were only handled directly by PSA employees.

At what point in the process did they go missing? What does or did your PSA account show? Sounds like they made it to arrived but not order prep?

And what was your DV on the cards?

[eastbayak]

I haven't followed the entire thread but what happens to a PSA rep (who takes drop-offs) if he/she loses cards before getting them safely to PSA?

[tighejames]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Based on this update, I'm guessing the $25,000 "market value" isn't what you declared as the submission value. Is the $12,500 PSA offer what you declared, or still less?

Did PSA explain how the cards ended up with another seller/account, and why they can't recover the items? Seems like you're fighting two issues.

The $12.5k was my declared value for the 3 orders. It was a low DV, for sure. They actually wanted to propose less, because some of the cards hadn't sold in a long time but they said they would grant my full insured amount. It still doesn't come close to covering the loss, however.

No attempt to explain how they could have ended up with another seller. It does seem logical to me that the two listed on ebay could be purchased, sent to PSA for verification, and flagged and held as my stolen property. PSA doesn't release ebay funds until the cards are received and verified. I can hold hope for this possibility, but that doesn't get my other 6 cards back, if they are in fact with the same seller.

[tighejames]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

At what point in the process did they go missing? What does or did your PSA account show? Sounds like they made it to arrived but not order prep?

And what was your DV on the cards?

PSA verified that my cards were dropped off and received. I have my own evidence, and PSA has their own security cameras at the event as well.

But my order was never entered into my online order tracker. It just disappeared online, a submission that had been input and printed but never showed status updates.

I remember leaving the event thinking, are they going to scan my submission forms, how come I am leaving and it doesn't show on my PSA app that they are received? I felt very uneasy about it, but had to take some deep breaths and tell myself, everyone is dropping cards off, just try and trust the system.

My insured Declared Value was listed collectively at $12.5k.

[Empty77]

OP: and you don't carry a personal articles/collectibles insurance policy on your sports memorabilia at what you feel is the full replacement cost?

Not weighing in on the situation itself which is already being covered and which is obviously bad, but from the perspective of alternate avenues to making you whole, that would have been an alternative. I feel like you can always count on corporations (in this case PSA) to do the selfish thing. So having one's own coverage is always wise. Perhaps a lesson for all here to reassess holdings and coverage.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by tighejames

The $12.5k was my declared value for the 3 orders. It was a low DV, for sure. They actually wanted to propose less, because some of the cards hadn't sold in a long time but they said they would grant my full insured amount. It still doesn't come close to covering the loss, however.

No attempt to explain how they could have ended up with another seller. It does seem logical to me that the two listed on ebay could be purchased, sent to PSA for verification, and flagged and held as my stolen property. PSA doesn't release ebay funds until the cards are received and verified. I can hold hope for this possibility, but that doesn't get my other 6 cards back, if they are in fact with the same seller.

Totally understand the frustration, but as previously noted, you're fighting two issues. Insurance value and actual value (the cards).

Really difficult to challenge PSA on declared value, as you were the one to set the value on the submission.
Having located at least two of the cards, maybe you've asked that seller about the others, checked the surrounding PSA certs? Trying to get the actual cards back seems like the path to pursue, especially with the undervalued DV.
If you can put pressure on PSA to recover your cards, it's possible that might get them to up the settlement offer. Just need to focus on your main interest. $ or your cards?

Good luck.

[49erRCCollector]

In any event, this sucks. I feel bad this happened to you.

The declared value being the lower number is going to be an issue for you.

Hopefully the police can help recover some of these for you. I would think eBay and PSA should help in any way possible.

[anusinha]

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

In any event, this sucks. I feel bad this happened to you.

The declared value being the lower number is going to be an issue for you.

Hopefully the police can help recover some of these for you. I would think eBay and PSA should help in any way possible.

This, you bought 12.5k worth of insurance, and they paid you 12.5k.

[rnocards]

Originally Posted by tighejames

My insured Declared Value was listed collectively at $12.5k.

They are not going to be convinced to pay you more than what you declared. Even in a lawsuit, their lawyers are going to argue: "Your Honor... the customer declared his cards to be valued at $12.5k... so, why should we pay more?"

I would instead try to get PSA to agree to locate all the cards back, instead of the cash settlement and NDA, especially if you have a sentimental attachment to the cards. If not, then take the cash and cut your losses.

[JWBlue]

Originally Posted by rnocards

They are not going to be convinced to pay you more than what you declared. Even in a lawsuit, their lawyers are going to argue: "Your Honor... the customer declared his cards to be valued at $12.5k... so, why should we pay more?"

I would instead try to get PSA to agree to locate all the cards back, instead of the cash settlement and NDA, especially if you have a sentimental attachment to the cards. If not, then take the cash and cut your losses.

This is what I was wondering as well. Why would they pay more than DV?

What a horrible story. PSA needs to have more internal controls where cards move in their grading facilities.

[rnocards]

Man, I hope whoever did the theft gets found out and arrested. It would be nice if PSA can collaborate with the police on finding this individual, but I don't know if they'd be willing to get too involved like that. They may just find it easier to pay out and move on with business, but for the sake of the hobby, I hope such individuals are pursued aggressively and caught.

[CardFarmer]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Why are you so sensitive? I’m asking more information so I can try to help him.

Sounds like you're the sensitive one. You asked a dumb question and got called on it.

[dodgerfanjohn]

Unless I missed it, OP has still not answered the question I posed about if his assessment of value is based on the cards being raw.

PSA is pretty clear that they assess value of raw cards as raw until they are actually graded.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by CardFarmer

Sounds like you're the sensitive one. You asked a dumb question and got called on it.

Next time, I won’t short hand anything. I’ll type out every single word so you bozos understand what I’m getting at.

My point was that he didn’t truly drop it off direct with PSA. He dropped it off with a PSA rep at a dealer. The reps don’t keep non-local drop offs in their physical possession on their way back to PSA. They ship them back home. OP says the order was verified to make it back to California. That’s vague. Did it arrive in California but not at PSA? Or what’s the proof it arrived at PSA if they never checked it in under his account?

It’s important because if you want real justice, then you need to know where to pinpoint the blame in your police report. If the $12.5k doesn’t matter to you, I’d go down that route (even though it’s likely to go nowhere). If the $12.5k matters, then you’re getting a fair payout based on your DV.

[KGD54]

Originally Posted by tighejames

PSA verified that my cards were dropped off and received. I have my own evidence, and PSA has their own security cameras at the event as well.

But my order was never entered into my online order tracker. It just disappeared online, a submission that had been input and printed but never showed status updates.

I remember leaving the event thinking, are they going to scan my submission forms, how come I am leaving and it doesn't show on my PSA app that they are received? I felt very uneasy about it, but had to take some deep breaths and tell myself, everyone is dropping cards off, just try and trust the system.

My insured Declared Value was listed collectively at $12.5k.

The inperson drop off system has changed since then. I have done in person drop offs at CardsHQ and they used to take the items without scanning anything and it would take a month to pop up in your submissions, they would simply count the number of cards and made sure it matched the paperwork.
Now they scan the barcode on your submission sheet and it it instantly shows up as received in you submissions, which makes me feel better about accountability for PSA.

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by SLGSports

Their process is BS. They ask you to estimate the value of cards post-grading, but you clearly have no idea what grades they'll give you -- especially lately. There's a clear financial motivation to underestimate the expected value post-grading because you simply pay more, and you don't get anything back when your gem-mint card comes back as a 6. Then they dress it up as "Declared Value" which is not what it is. If you were honestly declaring the value, it sounds like you would have put $25K.

That said, your assessment of value for 1/1 cards is going to differ from PSA. Since they have financial incentive to minimize the value, they're going to err on that side. And with no prior sales of these cards (presumably), you'll have a difficult time proving the value is different than what PSA says.

This needs more attention.

The process for DV is garbage.

[49erRCCollector]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Next time, I won’t short hand anything. I’ll type out every single word so you bozos understand what I’m getting at.

Bozos? Plural? What did I do?

I'm joking.