Skenes to the big leagues

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Funny I didn’t say anything about Nolan referring to kids. He was talking about PRO pitchers today who only go 4-5 innings. A 23-24 year old grown man throwing 150-200 innings is not the same as a teenager doing the same. As far as Skenes goes, I get why they slower with him, managing his time on the mound… he hasn’t had a lot of innings since college and a brief time in HS.
Pitchers today rarely know how to pitch out if jams. They know as soon as a certain inning comes up, a certain part of the order, there is a specialist coming in. Their starting job is now based on max effort for 5-6 innings, and thats it. Very few SPs probably don’t want to throw more than that. Why would they? Other than kickers pitchers see less time in their sport than any regular player yet het big bucks. Its also why morons have decided W-L dont dictate a greatness of a pitcher. Its because many dont even qualify for the win. If W-L dont matter in determining pitching greatness then Nolan Ryan is the greatest pitcher in history. Those Angels and most of the Astros and Rangers teams sucked.


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Yeah, wins and losses are a team stat. There are plenty of other stats to show how great a pitcher was.

A pitcher's WL record is completely dependent on his team's offense to score runs while they are in the game. To say a pitcher wasn't great because his team didn't score any runs is absurd.

It's like saying a hitter isn't good because the guys in front of him weren't getting on base so his RBI numbers are low. Or he's bad because the guys behind him didn't drive him in. Or he's bad because the team has a terrible record

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Yeah, wins and losses are a team stat. There are plenty of other stats to show how great a pitcher was.

A pitcher's WL record is completely dependent on his team's offense to score runs while they are in the game. To say a pitcher wasn't great because his team didn't score any runs is absurd.

It's like saying a hitter isn't good because the guys in front of him weren't getting on base so his RBI numbers are low. Or he's bad because the guys behind him didn't drive him in. Or he's bad because the team has a terrible record

Sounds like critics of Mike Trout.

The reality is, those team stats help to sell cards.

If Trout was a WS winner, his stuff wouldn’t be tanking as much.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Sounds like critics of Mike Trout.

The reality is, those team stats help to sell cards.

If Trout was a WS winner, his stuff wouldn’t be tanking as much.

Trout's prices are dropping (taking your word, I don't track his stuff) because he's injured, not because the team is losing. How'd his stuff do from 2016-2019, when he was playing and finishing top 5 in MVP voting and the team was losing. Or how about Ohtani during his time with the Angels?

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Trout's prices are dropping (taking your word, I don't track his stuff) because he's injured, not because the team is losing. How'd his stuff do from 2016-2019, when he was playing and finishing top 5 in MVP voting and the team was losing. Or how about Ohtani during his time with the Angels?

His cards did well because he was hitting big bombs and a lot of them. His cards would be even more expensive if he won multiple World Series.

Jeter stuff sells extremely well because of his rings.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

His cards did well because he was hitting big bombs and a lot of them. His cards would be even more expensive if he won multiple World Series.

Jeter stuff sells extremely well because of his rings.

So his cards did well because he was good, and not because his team was winning. Got it, thanks.

And rings are not the same thing as just winning. Nor does do they mean a player's cards will sell well. Chuck Knoblauch has 4 rings, he's not hobby good. What about Chad Curtis and his 2 rings, how's his stuff sell?

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by whitmm

So his cards did well because he was good, and not because his team was winning. Got it, thanks.

And rings are not the same thing as just winning. Nor does do they mean a player's cards will sell well. Chuck Knoblauch has 4 rings, he's not hobby good. What about Chad Curtis and his 2 rings, how's his stuff sell?

For a pirates pitcher to be hobby good, he needs wins.

There are not enough advanced metrics investors in this hobby to push his cards to da moon without W’s.

His bullpen is going to hinder his ability to do that.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

For a pirates pitcher to be hobby good, he needs wins.

There are not enough advanced metrics investors in this hobby to push his cards to da moon without W’s.

His bullpen is going to hinder his ability to do that.

Paul Skenes hobby love will be solely dependent on his own performance.

deGrom got hobby love when he wasn't racking up wins. Pitchers in general just struggle with getting hobby love in general, just like second basement and catchers. It has nothing to do with his team's success.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

A pitching arm is a lever, and the shoulder is a fulcrum. So while there are definitely some smaller guys able to coax a lot of velocity out of their arms, from a purely mechanical standpoint, it is easier to get more velocity from a taller player than a short player. But again, with so many other variables at play, there will be nearly as many exceptions as rules.

Hmm -- looks like height is indeed a factor:

Average height of US male: 5' 9"

Average height of MLB pitcher: 6' 2.5"

[jhssketchcards]

In their prime…fastest pitch

Pedro Martinez 5’11” - 100 mph
Tom Seaver 6’1” - 98 mph
Tim Lincecum 5’11 - 101 mph
Bob Feller 6’0” - using updated measuring methods is reported to have thrown 104 mph

Billy Wagner 5’10” threw 159 pitches that hit 100 mph in 2002. There are MANY 6’3-6’5” guys who played MLB and never touched that.

EVERY MLB scout will tell you velocity comes from a strong base and core as well as well conditioned chest and shoulders. Even Dr James Andrews routinely talks about how the arm and wrist (especially the elbow) has more to do with control of the velocity rather than generating it.

Stephen Strasburg 6’5” cane out of HS 30 lbs overweight when he joined the SDSU baseball team
(Coached by Tony Gwynn). It’s well known he was so out of shape at SDSU they nicknamed him “Slothburg” and he would throw up during and after drills. His FB topped out at 90 in HS but after his freshman year and struggling through conditioning drills he lost the weight and got stronger (especially the legs Strasburg said) and his FB climbed to 100 mph.

Look at the difference between his senior year…
Notice how much heavier his lower half is.


And his junior year at SDSU… notice how more muscular his lower half is as well as less fat around his mid section.

[Slvnumber2]

20+ posts in one day by one poster on this one - insane.

[Hollywood42]

Breaking news, professional athletes are taller than the average population

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Hmm -- looks like height is indeed a factor:

Average height of US male: 5' 9"

Average height of MLB pitcher: 6' 2.5"

[sportzluvr1]

Oh my-lanta this place is a s*** show anymore.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

In their prime…fastest pitch

Pedro Martinez 5’11” - 100 mph
Tom Seaver 6’1” - 98 mph
Tim Lincecum 5’11 - 101 mph
Bob Feller 6’0” - using updated measuring methods is reported to have thrown 104 mph

Billy Wagner 5’10” threw 159 pitches that hit 100 mph in 2002. There are MANY 6’3-6’5” guys who played MLB and never touched that.

EVERY MLB scout will tell you velocity comes from a strong base and core as well as well conditioned chest and shoulders. Even Dr James Andrews routinely talks about how the arm and wrist (especially the elbow) has more to do with control of the velocity rather than generating it.

Stephen Strasburg 6’5” cane out of HS 30 lbs overweight when he joined the SDSU baseball team
(Coached by Tony Gwynn). It’s well known he was so out of shape at SDSU they nicknamed him “Slothburg” and he would throw up during and after drills. His FB topped out at 90 in HS but after his freshman year and struggling through conditioning drills he lost the weight and got stronger (especially the legs Strasburg said) and his FB climbed to 100 mph.

Look at the difference between his senior year…
Notice how much heavier his lower half is.


And his junior year at SDSU… notice how more muscular his lower half is as well as less fat around his mid section.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, giving a few examples literally means nothing in this discussion. It's anecdotal.

[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, giving a few examples literally means nothing in this discussion. It's anecdotal. You clearly don't understand statistics, nor the physics and mechanics of pitching. And frankly, you don't even understand what I've said. Arm length and pitcher height are FACTORS in pitch velocity. One of many factors. But it's completely ignorant to claim they are not. Literally anyone who has studied the topic will tell you that. Even your quote by Dr. Andrews alludes to the fact that while the arm's primary function in pitching is control of velocity, he does not state is plays no role in generating velocity. The physics says it does. Further, a pitcher's height is more than just arm length. That lower body that helps generate velocity? Guess what, longer legs and torso plays a role.

Again, come back with all the individual examples of short players throwing hard, or tall players throwing soft. It means absolutely nothing to the physics.

Well, I three harder than you did in college. I guess I did that out of my lack of understanding pitching.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Well, I three harder than you did in college. I guess I did that out of my lack of understanding pitching.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah, more irrelevant argument.

The problem here is we tend to agree on a lot of things. You just refuse to acknowledge that pitcher height is an additional factor. I'm not saying all those other things don't matter. But it's basic physics that when an arm moves, if the same speed is generated from the body through the shoulder, and all things are equal, the longer the arm, the faster the hand hodling the ball moves. Just like the tip of a windmill moves faster than any point closer to the axis. It's basic phyics.

I think you are getting hung up on the fact that all those other factors you mentioned contribute so much to how much force is generated by the body/shoulder, which is paramount to generating velocity. I agree with all that. But it doesn't change my point.

[JeremyNick]

3 starts in and this thread is being dominated by a bunch of BO Joe’s arguing nonsense at a velo that would give scouts priapism.

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by JeremyNick

a velo that would give scouts priapism.

Word of the Day:

priapism

“Priapism is a condition in which a penis remains erect for hours in the absence of stimulation or after stimulation has ended.“

.

[Slvnumber2]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

Word of the Day:

priapism

“Priapism is a condition in which a penis remains erect for hours in the absence of stimulation or after stimulation has ended.“

.

I always love the commercials that state for an erection lasting longer than three hours Please consult your doctor. Forget that. That happens to me. I’m heading straight to the closest sorority house.🤣

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Hollywood42

Breaking news, professional athletes are taller than the average population

And?

Average height of MLB 2B is 5' 11.5".

Some of the best MLB players are short:

Mookie Betts -- 5' 9"

Jose Altuve -- 5' 6"

Marcus Stroman -- 5' 8"

Ozzie Albies -- 5' 8"

Jose Ramirez -- 5' 9"


Average height of each MLB position (2023 data):

C: 6' 0.38"
1B: 6' 2.05"
2B: 5' 11.5"
SS: 6' 0.8"
3B: 6' 0.44"
RF: 6' 0.83"
CF: 6' 0.96"
LF: 6' 0.83"
DH: 6' 2.06"
P: 6' 2.63"

Oh, gee -- would you look at that. The tallest position is pitcher -- I wonder why.

[Hollywood42]

Marcus Stroman is one of the MLB's best players?

Can't wait for people to realize their exceptions to the rule are just that - exceptions. But comparing Skenes to the average height of MLB 2Bs at least is making progress from comparing Skenes to the average American, so we're going the right direction

[Twalk1975]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

Word of the Day:

priapism

“Priapism is a condition in which a penis remains erect for hours in the absence of stimulation or after stimulation has ended.“

.

Google "death erection"

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by Twalk1975

Google "death erection"

I won’t do it ….. I’m done with this particular Word of the Day, and it’s focus on a male body part - it’s making me feel creepy and nauseous

[awz50]

Dealing again today

5.2 9ks 2 ER

[whitmm]

Shocking, nobody is here complaining that he only went 6 innings today.

[speedyjg13]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Shocking, nobody is here complaining that he only went 6 innings today.

They will return if he has a bad start