PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Ok. Let’s say that’s the case. So what?

If Brent sent in, say an altered 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum Dimagio (completely random card I just picked) and then sold it to me. I find out it’s altered, take it to him and he tells me to contact PSA to get my refund. That would be the logical thing for these guys to do since PSA guarantees the grade on the slab.

Why would they pay out just because they submitted the card? It makes no sense to me. Brent isn’t guaranteeing anything.

Someone returns it to PSA, assume. PSA pays, assume. Then what does PSA do if it believes the submitter knew it was altered? Goes after the submitter. It comes to the same place.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

They don’t have enough to cover just what BODA has found.

I’d LOVE to see who the top 20 PSA submitters have been year after year. Would Moser crack that? Top 5?

I’d hope the majority can see exactly what is going on here.

I think modern guys are the big PSA submitters, for the most part.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Someone returns it to PSA, assume. PSA pays, assume. Then what does PSA do if it believes the submitter knew it was altered? Goes after the submitter. It comes to the same place.

PSA would:

-Have to know who submitted the card
-Be okay knowing that the submitter is submitting altered cards

Brent could submit altered cards under any name he wanted. Anybody could for that matter. PSA wouldn’t have a clue.

Here’s the even better scam:

-Person A alters cards.
-A and B shill cards to the moon.
-Person C (working with A and B) wins altered card, sells it back to PSA under their guarantee.

In this instance you would NEVER have to involve any outside party who would ever raise a stink to you demanding a refund. You’d have the details top to bottom to prove it was an altered card as well and PSA wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.

These criminals (they are criminals) could very easily keep themselves from exposure due to the nature of grading and the system PSA has in place. Why didn’t they do this when the financial outcome (real sales to marks vs. fake sales to someone on your team) nets you the same amount with less risk.

Why weren’t these guys taking up PSA on their guarantee?

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I think modern guys are the big PSA submitters, for the most part.

What do you mean by “modern guys”?

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

What do you mean by “modern guys”?

Guys selling modern cards, which I would roughly define as late 80s and on.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

PSA would:

-Have to know who submitted the card
-Be okay knowing that the submitter is submitting altered cards

Brent could submit altered cards under any name he wanted. Anybody could for that matter. PSA wouldn’t have a clue.

Here’s the even better scam:

-Person A alters cards.
-A and B shill cards to the moon.
-Person C (working with A and B) wins altered card, sells it back to PSA under their guarantee.

In this instance you would NEVER have to involve any outside party who would ever raise a stink to you demanding a refund. You’d have the details top to bottom to prove it was an altered card as well and PSA wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.

These criminals (they are criminals) could very easily keep themselves from exposure due to the nature of grading and the system PSA has in place. Why didn’t they do this when the financial outcome (real sales to marks vs. fake sales to someone on your team) nets you the same amount with less risk.

Why weren’t these guys taking up PSA on their guarantee?

There may have been a reason for Brent to submit himself.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

PSA would:



-Have to know who submitted the card

-Be okay knowing that the submitter is submitting altered cards



Brent could submit altered cards under any name he wanted. Anybody could for that matter. PSA wouldn’t have a clue.



Here’s the even better scam:



-Person A alters cards.

-A and B shill cards to the moon.

-Person C (working with A and B) wins altered card, sells it back to PSA under their guarantee.



In this instance you would NEVER have to involve any outside party who would ever raise a stink to you demanding a refund. You’d have the details top to bottom to prove it was an altered card as well and PSA wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.



These criminals (they are criminals) could very easily keep themselves from exposure due to the nature of grading and the system PSA has in place. Why didn’t they do this when the financial outcome (real sales to marks vs. fake sales to someone on your team) nets you the same amount with less risk.



Why weren’t these guys taking up PSA on their guarantee?

I thought of this as well, but figured PSA would quickly go out of business if a scam like this were implemented.

Edit: it’s more lucrative to draw out the scam.

[corndog]

PSA Cert #25776415

1933 Goudey Sport Kings Walter Hagen #8 - Population 1 of 4 - None Graded Higher

Value gain of $9,037.00

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-7 on February 28, 2016 for $788.00.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1217152
Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-8.5 for $9,825.00 on September 27, 2016.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1356561

Yellow circles are print or fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify ink removal on the front right and what appears to be cleaning on the back back by a non-water solution.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Why weren’t these guys taking up PSA on their guarantee?

Which guys?

The PSA guarantee can only be used by individuals unassociated with the submitter.

"the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card."
https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee

From the little I read PCGS coin grading appears to have had issues in the past with coin doctors trying to scam PSA through their guarantee program.

[cowboyzqna]

Don't bid on their stuff... probably the only actual punishment that will happen.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by corndog

1933 Goudey Sport Kings Walter Hagen #8 - Population 1 of 4 - None Graded Higher

Wow! Nice find Corndog

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

I thought of this as well, but figured PSA would quickly go out of business if a scam like this were implemented.

Edit: it’s more lucrative to draw out the scam.

I’d just as easy to assume PSA would keep more in reserves before closing up shop, as they’ve done in the past according to their financials.

PSA has more data than anybody (obviously) on who is grading what with them. Why allow known card doctors to even submit when you’ve got so much exposure? If PSAs own forum knew of these guys in the early 2000s I’d have to assume PSA was aware as well, especially considering the risk they take on by offering their guarantee.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Guys selling modern cards, which I would roughly define as late 80s and on.

They’re (the alterers) buying and altering those too (Robert Block and his 1:50 graded Jordan RC stash).

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

They’re (the alterers) buying and altering those too (Robert Block and his 1:50 graded Jordan RC stash).

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if the fraud on modern equaled or exceeded the fraud on vintage, when all is said and done.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if the fraud on modern equaled or exceeded the fraud on vintage, when all is said and done.

I agree, although with vintage you have VCP, CardTarget, and Worthpoint to use as tools. With modern it's just Worthpoint at this point.

Also, speaking of VCP: Bobby, fix your site! The card images are still not loading.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if the fraud on modern equaled or exceeded the fraud on vintage, when all is said and done.

Yeah who knows?

I’ll rely on what the trimmer of card #1 said on the topic in 2008 to an informant with a wire:

"Okay, I don't care it is trimmed, I don't care it if is real. I want the authenticators to look at it and think it's real. You think all these PSA cards we're auctioning are, aren't unaltered. They're all altered. The alteration going on, it is unbelievable in our hobby right now."

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

I’d just as easy to assume PSA would keep more in reserves before closing up shop, as they’ve done in the past according to their financials.

PSA has more data than anybody (obviously) on who is grading what with them. Why allow known card doctors to even submit when you’ve got so much exposure? If PSAs own forum knew of these guys in the early 2000s I’d have to assume PSA was aware as well, especially considering the risk they take on by offering their guarantee.

I don’t think one can assume that PSA would meaningfully increase the amount of their reserve in reaction, though.

It would be truly “fun” if *PSA* were to start buying these bad slabs at truly extravagant prices (think shill) then ask PWCC to refund THEM...see how long PWCC stays afloat . Too bad that might be a conflict.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if the fraud on modern equaled or exceeded the fraud on vintage, when all is said and done.

Yes especially on non-serial numbered cards.

[SetBuilder]

eBay:


Heritage:


REA:


Mile High:


Others:

[Bruins1993]

1941 Play Ball Ted Williams #14

PSA 2 Cert 29021682, buyer w***1 on 8/12/2018 from pwcc_marketplace for $376.00
PSA 4 Cert 42556458, sold on 5/8/2019 by pwcc_marketplace for $695.00

+$319.00

Yellow and black annotations are print or fiber identifiers.

Red square identifies ink removal on back by what appears to be a non-water solution.

[superdan49]

VCP is now working.

Also, VCP now has an "Open Image" link, which is new. This is helpful, thank you Bobby.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

1941 Play Ball Ted Williams #14

PSA 2 Cert 29021682, buyer w***1 on 8/12/2018 from pwcc_marketplace for $376.00
PSA 4 Cert 42556458, sold on 5/8/2019 by pwcc_marketplace for $695.00

+$319.00

Yellow and black annotations are print or fiber identifiers.

Red square identifies ink removal on back by what appears to be a non-water solution.

Any time I see ink come off I automatically put bleached.

[SetBuilder]

SGC Cert# 3877088

Card: 1887 N28 Allen & Ginter, Charles Comiskey.

Alterations: Back cleaned, Front damaged due to cleaning.

• Yellow circles are the common print marks/flaws between both cards.

• Blue box shows the stain removal on the back of the card.

• Red box shows chipping to surface on Comiskey's ear caused by cleaning.

Sold by PWCC (as SGC 10/1) on February 5, 2018 for $370.02 to Moser's whitman111 account.

Description: "Scrapbook residue on the reverse prevents a higher assessment." (Sounds like a job for!... )

Re-sold by PWCC (as a SGC 3) on May 8, 2019 for $670 with PWCC-A ("Above Average" sticker).

Description: "Wonderful copy which ranks in the top 30% of all examples. Boasts many attributes greater than the grade assigned with an ink transfer on the reverse and a couple of enamel chips accounting for the assessment." (Too bad Moser caused those "enamel chips" by scrubbing Commy's ear too hard! )

Gain: $299.98

Fronts:


Backs:

[superdan49]

PSA Cert #:42313924

1952 Topps Look 'N See #7 Ulysses S. Grant PSA 7 to PSA 9
Alteration types: Trimming

Sold on 5/31/2018 as a PSA 7 by eBay seller sportspot to whitman111 (Gary Moser's eBay ID) for $20.55
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 3/27/2019 as a PSA 9 for $356.00
Final price: $356.00
Value gain: $335.45


Typical 1952 Topps Look 'N See trim job from Gary Moser. There are many more of these Look 'N See cards to be uncovered for anyone interested in assisting. The green boxes show the trimmed right and left edges. Pink circles show print flaws and/or paper fibers common to the cards in both images, confirming they are the same.



PSA 7: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/n...7/186309/PSA/7
PSA 9: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1936711

[superdan49]

PSA Cert #:42313797

1952 Topps Look 'N See #88 Roald Amundsen PSA 5.5 to PSA 8
Alteration types: Trimming

Sold on 1/14/2018 as a PSA 5.5 by eBay seller portlandsportscard to whitman111 (Gary Moser's eBay ID) for $23.47
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 3/27/2019 as a PSA 8 for $409.00
Final price: $409.00
Value gain: $385.53


This is the second trimmed '52 Topps Look 'N See card of explorer Roald Amundsen that has been uncovered in this thread. (See Post #2746 for the first one.)
The left edge of this card has been noticeably trimmed, which is boxed in green. Red circles show print flaws and/or paper fibers common to the cards in both images, confirming they are the same.



PSA 5.5: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/n...186389/PSA/5.5
PSA 8: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1936728