BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by notfast

That doesn’t seem like a plausible explanation.

No chance someone cracked that many 10s and then, with the subjectivity of grading, we have discussed here today...got all 10’s AGAIN.

That’s almost as impossible as all these black labels in a row.

Agreed. IF I remember correctly, the sub was entirely this card, so traceability is slim. Let me check again.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I don't mean to distract but can someone explain why sequential numbering or not matters, if he's still getting this huge number of black labels per submission?

He’s trying to say the cards were cherry picked, and the only reason they are sequentially numbered is that the black labels are done that way because of the change in the color of the flip.

Except another user posted images of a series of cards with black labels mixed in between 9.5 and non-black label 10s.

[tonedef2oo8]

Originally Posted by LEAF

I'm not admitting to the all the stuff you posted, BUT we did make missteps back then and I am man enough to admit it.

When you misstep, you MUST learn from it or you will again.

You dont have to like me or Leaf, but denying the progress shows clear bias.

BG

Here’s what I just got in a email you don’t need to admit it most you did years ago captain backtrack

You sold a cherry picked Ozzy from a set to nyc3 at Fcb

You gave mods over at the same site before the public knew the sp list so they could buy some before it’s officially released

You told everyone her the Ali product will have 1 autograph per case which suddenly changed to 1.5 cases once the orders were in

Ali , ali chrome , ali supers

But let’s not get off topic you were saying what a stand up guy your friend (who seems to also be busted shill bidding) is legit...the company you keep says a bunch. But hey your vouching for this guy with your money and your company.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I don't mean to distract but can someone explain why sequential numbering or not matters, if he's still getting this huge number of black labels per submission?

If each person that pulled these did their due diligence and looked beyond just this clumping, it will not matter. I don't know if those people did or didn't so that, but I assume if they hadn't Joe would've quickly pointed that out.

[patchgenie]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Has anyone seen the actual evidence? Any scans of the cards?

i don't think there is enough evidence. this result is possible if you have a lot of knowledge of grading. i don't agree with most of this thread, but that is just me.

[sickmantz]

Originally Posted by azbaseballfan

I don't know anything after this, but it made my day.

[ajpitch22]

Originally Posted by LEAF

Just so you know, I am NOT covering for my own. I don't pretend to know about "his" business. I am merely providing a character reference the same way many on this thread are providing character assassination.
Every post that didn't call Joe a scumbag is responded to harshly and with negativity. Why would anyone speak up???? You'd have to have a lynching fetish to do so.....

It's all good. My opinion is out there. We'll see what happens.

BG

He’s your employee, a representation of you and your company. I would think you would be more interested in the truth rather than giving yourself outs regarding his buying “habits” and a laughable explanation of an Eagle eye it shows, in my opinion, you’re not interested in the truth. The black label thing is just one of the questionable things mentioned in this thread. Offering a reward for likely an unattainable level of “proof” in your (Eagle) eyes, doesn’t mean anything.

[WalkOffBalker]

Originally Posted by psd2k10

one thing I CAN guarantee, he's reading every single response on this thread. it is humanly impossible not to. the curiosity would eat him alive.

I'm not so sure. If I'm guilty of perpetuating fraud of this magnitude, I'm laying in my bed with my stomach turning while trying everything I can to not think about this. The last thing I'd want to do is read a bunch of messages that confirm what I already know I did and always hoped would never be discovered.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

He’s trying to say the cards were cherry picked, and the only reason they are sequentially numbered is that the black labels are done that way because of the change in the color of the flip.

Except another user posted images of a series of cards with black labels mixed in between 9.5 and non-black label 10s.

But cherry picked or not, isn't it still a crazy high number of them? Or is that not the case.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Well if he sends 80-100 cards and got 8 black labels, some 10s, and lot of 9.5s then his argument about having a good eye and sending some very easy modern grade cards has a lot more credibility. But since he won't, the argument is that he got 8/8 black labels on his submission because they were sequentially numbered. So is the numbering always sequential or has bgs batched cards in a way that group grading together. See evidence that it doesn't and some that it has.

There is not much more information than that.

He said he sends in small batches, did he not, in his post?

Yes, here:

I’ve said multiple times that I submit my very best, cleanest stuff in smaller batches and pay for faster turnaround times. I submit in smaller batches in hopes of doing better on grades.

[Rooftop]

I have a few questions.

Were you severally injured at one point in your life? Was Dr. Rudy Wells your primary physician? Is Oscar Goldman a director at BGS? Did you have a fling with Jaime Summers?

If you answered Yes to these questions then I believe you 100%

[kyaa]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Well if he sends 80-100 cards and got 8 black labels, some 10s, and lot of 9.5s then his argument about having a good eye and sending some very easy modern grade cards has a lot more credibility. But since he won't, the argument is that he got 8/8 black labels on his submission because they were sequentially numbered. So is the numbering always sequential or has bgs batched cards in a way that group grading together. See evidence that it doesn't and some that it has.

There is not much more information than that.

Look up the submissions yourself. There is no huge string of 9.5s and 9s surrounding all his 10s and Black Labels.

[metsandweezer]

I can’t wait for the National, it’s gonna be exciting!

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by notfast

That doesn’t seem like a plausible explanation.

No chance someone cracked that many 10s and then, with the subjectivity of grading, we have discussed here today...got all 10’s AGAIN.

That’s almost as impossible as all these black labels in a row.

Cards were graded the day of the National, so from my Robert Block experience, you can not trace those cards by sub. It looks like all cards graded on one day are in the same sub. However, the Trouts would all be from the same submitter.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by pgisback

I understand that, the point is are all orders sequentially numbered or is there any batching process like he claims that separates out orders. Someone showed a string of the same card that was sequentially numbered, it should be easy for someone on blowout to show a string of different cards with different slabs that are sequentially numbered.

You're missing the point. If there's no string of 9.5s or 10s in the general vicinity of those that were graded on the same day, it doesn't matter how they were batched. If that is the scope of the submission, that is the scope.

[EricTownsend88]

So what is it even safe to buy anymore?

- Can't buy anything in a PSA holder because of trimming
- Can't purchase anything through PWCC
- Can't buy BGS anymore after the Black Label scandal
- Can't support Leaf anymore after the Black Label response from BG
- Can't buy loose packs because they've been searched

What can we actually buy? Wax boxes maybe? Is the wax market about to explode because that is going to be the only option for anyone that want's to ethically continue to collect cards? Are 1990 Donruss boxes going to start going for $40 now?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pspa123

But cherry picked or not, isn't it still a crazy high number of them? Or is that not the case.

Black labels are exceptionally rare.

Joe is claiming that the "orders" we have recreated in this thread are not the complete orders. And that BGS sequentially numbers the black labels because they have to change printing plate to print the gold text. So an order that looks like 12 black labels and 1 pristine was actually 12 black labels, 50 pristine, and 500 9.5s (just throwing out numbers here). So his hit rate is much, much smaller than we think the evidence shows.

As I've said again and again, this would literally take minutes for him to prove. One screenshot with the order information from any of the orders in the OP would prove us all wrong. But Joe is unwilling to do that.

[DaRitz]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I don't mean to distract but can someone explain why sequential numbering or not matters, if he's still getting this huge number of black labels per submission?

A 3-for-3 black label submission has a different "feel" to it than a 1000 card submission with 12 black labels.

There seem to be mixed reports on whether those 12 black labels would be numbered sequentially or not. Seems to be some evidence showing it happens sometimes but not others...

[LEAF]

Originally Posted by tonedef2oo8

Here’s what I just got in a email you don’t need to admit it most you did years ago captain backtrack

You sold a cherry picked Ozzy from a set to nyc3 at Fcb

You gave mods over at the same site before the public knew the sp list so they could buy some before it’s officially released

You told everyone her the Ali product will have 1 autograph per case which suddenly changed to 1.5 cases once the orders were in

Ali , ali chrome , ali supers

But let’s not get off topic you were saying what a stand up guy your friend (who seems to also be busted shill bidding) is legit...the company you keep says a bunch. But hey your vouching for this guy with your money and your company.

I don't remember most of the details on the above as it was 10 years ago, except I do know that ONE GUY broke over 100 cases of ALI Metal (as the item sold poorly at release).... But again, why let the facts get in the way of a good lynching?

Regardless, learning is progress. For example, today I learned that if you are going to refuse to join the lynch mob, stay home.

Im heading home. Bye... BG

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Black labels are exceptionally rare.

Joe is claiming that the "orders" we have recreated in this thread are not the complete orders. And that BGS sequentially numbers the black labels because they have to change printing plate to print the gold text. So an order that looks like 12 black labels and 1 pristine was actually 12 black labels, 50 pristine, and 500 9.5s (just throwing out numbers here). So his hit rate is much, much smaller than we think the evidence shows.

As I've said again and again, this would literally take minutes for him to prove. One screenshot with the order information from any of the orders in the OP would prove us all wrong. But Joe is unwilling to do that.

But he also said he submits in small batches, as I just posted. Which sounded to me like his explanation was I've got super magical powers.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by oddstuff

The case I was trying to make is completely not what you said. The case I'm trying to make is that after 17 years, I am still learning what is a gem mint card. That learning to prescreen cards for gem mint is an art, a skill...not something a person can figure out in a year, two years or even five years of looking at cards intensively 2 weekends out of every month, which is the amount of time I spend looking at my raw purchases....AND...that Joe and other high volume graded card sellers look at raw cards EVERY DAY for eight or more hours a day...and through that, that is where those persons have DEVELOPED the ability to submit only cards that have a high probability of getting a gold or black pristine label.

He was submitting a lot of 2013 Arenado, Yelich, and Machado cards.
Getting 9.5s on these is profitable.
If it's due to his expert eye, there should be a bunch of those in 9.5, as he would recognize the clear 9.5s as he's going through cards and submit those too.

Spoiler alert: There aren't many.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by EricTownsend88

So what is it even safe to buy anymore?

- Can't buy anything in a PSA holder because of trimming
- Can't purchase anything through PWCC
- Can't buy BGS anymore after the Black Label scandal
- Can't support Leaf anymore after the Black Label response from BG
- Can't buy loose packs because they've been searched

What can we actually buy? Wax boxes maybe? Is the wax market about to explode because that is going to be the only option for anyone that want's to ethically continue to collect cards? Are 1990 Donruss boxes going to start going for $40 now?

only factory sealed cases

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pspa123

But he also said he submits in small batches, as I just posted.

But later he says he submits the great stuff in small batches and the good stuff in larger batches.

However, I do big orders also. If I don’t think a card is 10 quality or it’s a really cheap card then I put it in a bigger batch and often do no sub-grades to save time and money. I also occasionally submit with friends if I don’t have enough cards to get a discount so while not all of the cards I’ve graded are on my BGS account they are sold on my eBay account. I also occasionally do minimum grade orders but I have to pay even if the card doesn’t get slabbed so I try not to do many.

There is plausibility in his story as he has presented. And he can prove it by providing the information I have asked for.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

But later he says he submits the great stuff in small batches and the good stuff in larger batches.



There is plausibility in his story as he has presented. And he can prove it by providing the information I have asked for.

How is it plausible he is getting massive numbers of black labels out of subs even HE thinks aren't better than good? I didn't find that plausible. Or maybe he's just saying his overall percentage isn't as high as you guys are saying, but so what? The point is he's getting an inexplicable percentage on individual subs, right? All because of his super magical powers.

[kyaa]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Let me say this: I'm looking at the data in Worthpoint. This goes deep and far back.

If anyone wants to help, I need it.

I need a research break but please share your findings when ready.